Barefoot cruelty? Abcesses in particular...
- Thread starter snopuma
- Start date
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
We never got to the bottom I personally I decided he was going somewhere in the field that was causing the gravel to get in he was nosey they where in a huge varied field , I dont know what happened to him he went to the sales after I left.
foxy1
Well-Known Member
Tallyho have you read the thread about the youngster who had so many abscesses the farrier wanted them to shoe him at 18 months? The owner started feeding him minerals and no problems since if I remember rightly.
I have 2 yearlings, on the same field, one has textbook feet, the other constantly throws event lines, was growing weak walls and had stretched white lines. Both fed the same, Linseed, Fastfibre, dodson and horrell performance minerals. As an experiment I supplemented his feed with extra copper and his feet now look as textbook as the other yearling. I do think some horses need more fine tuning in their management than others.
I have 2 yearlings, on the same field, one has textbook feet, the other constantly throws event lines, was growing weak walls and had stretched white lines. Both fed the same, Linseed, Fastfibre, dodson and horrell performance minerals. As an experiment I supplemented his feed with extra copper and his feet now look as textbook as the other yearling. I do think some horses need more fine tuning in their management than others.
ester
Not slacking multitasking
Given that most shod horses have very little/no frog function with regards to a pump (mine certainly didn't) they must just be lucky not to get abscesses from toxins or have particularly good hearts. I am some what sceptical about just how much influence a frog can have on a vertical (against gravity) leg anyway, compared to a heart.
I don't believe that the volume/concentration of 'toxins' in a small area of pooled blood is likely to cause any issues on a cellular level. I think it is much more likely that small areas with potentially reduced blood flow (for various reasons not just the frog not pumping) become necrotic due to lack of oxygen supply in their immediate area which then are classed as a foreign body and result in an inflammatory response.
foxy1
Well-Known Member
My understanding is not that the frog acts as a pump, but that the back part of the foot, digital cushion etc including the frog, compresses when the foot is down so when it's lifted the blood refills the area like filling a vacuum.
Not sure that makes sense? Oh well, I know what I mean
Not sure that makes sense? Oh well, I know what I mean
ester
Not slacking multitasking
no I know what you mean 
some do claim it acts like a pump to aid whole limb perfusion though not just the op 
some do claim it acts like a pump to aid whole limb perfusion though not just the op simionet
Member
Two things
Both my horses when shod had multiple abscesses, but I wasn´t aware of them. It was only when I had their shoes taken off and started to look at their feet properly (bad owner
used to leave feet to the farrier!) that I noticed they each had several small (and some slightly larger) abscess exit holes in the hoof wall. They hadn´t cause any lameness, I had been eventing these horses so trust me I would have noticed! So for the people who say their horses have never had an abscess, they are not always symptomatic.
The most common abscesses we suffer, dental abscesses are often asymptomatic as they establish a drainage tract. They are painful when there is no path of drainage and pressure builds.
These abscesses are caused by death of the tissue inside the tooth and subsequent bacterial ingress. These bugs set up camp in the bone around the tooth and depènding on the interaction between the types of bugs and host response you may get the build up of pus.
Like hooves teeth can be tender to pressure when you have this situation which may range from a slight tenderness on biting to ranging pain. For this reason I don´t buy into the idea that hoof abscesses are always non weight bearing (as I´ve been told by many a farrier) and there is likely to be a range of symptoms from none to grumbling to the classic pointing- foot-three legged-hop!
In comparison to dental abscesses there seems to be little solid info on the pathophysiology of hoof abscesses but I suspect it is a lot more complex than the simple foreign body entry often cited (although this may be one cause- as per Tallyhos splinter)
Host immunity has a massive role in how abscesses develop. My cushings horse had many more abscess exit holes than the healthy youngster. Since being barefoot for a year he has only had one, a rather massive one, completely asymptomatic that became evident recently when one of his heels fell off! He has been on pergolide or a month and is doing really well so I will watch with interest for future abscesses.
Of all the eight hooves I´ve been monitoring closely (I´m talking crawling in the dirt with a magnifying glass, hoof geek ) over the past 18 months the only pair that don´t seem to have suffered any abscesses are the never shod hind feet of the healthy youngster.
As with any illness though I´m certain that abscesses and certainly recurrent abscesses have a multifactorial pathology.
Rambling but I´ve been pondering this for a while
Both my horses when shod had multiple abscesses, but I wasn´t aware of them. It was only when I had their shoes taken off and started to look at their feet properly (bad owner
used to leave feet to the farrier!) that I noticed they each had several small (and some slightly larger) abscess exit holes in the hoof wall. They hadn´t cause any lameness, I had been eventing these horses so trust me I would have noticed! So for the people who say their horses have never had an abscess, they are not always symptomatic. The most common abscesses we suffer, dental abscesses are often asymptomatic as they establish a drainage tract. They are painful when there is no path of drainage and pressure builds.
These abscesses are caused by death of the tissue inside the tooth and subsequent bacterial ingress. These bugs set up camp in the bone around the tooth and depènding on the interaction between the types of bugs and host response you may get the build up of pus.
Like hooves teeth can be tender to pressure when you have this situation which may range from a slight tenderness on biting to ranging pain. For this reason I don´t buy into the idea that hoof abscesses are always non weight bearing (as I´ve been told by many a farrier) and there is likely to be a range of symptoms from none to grumbling to the classic pointing- foot-three legged-hop!
In comparison to dental abscesses there seems to be little solid info on the pathophysiology of hoof abscesses but I suspect it is a lot more complex than the simple foreign body entry often cited (although this may be one cause- as per Tallyhos splinter
)Host immunity has a massive role in how abscesses develop. My cushings horse had many more abscess exit holes than the healthy youngster. Since being barefoot for a year he has only had one, a rather massive one, completely asymptomatic that became evident recently when one of his heels fell off! He has been on pergolide or a month and is doing really well so I will watch with interest for future abscesses.
Of all the eight hooves I´ve been monitoring closely (I´m talking crawling in the dirt with a magnifying glass, hoof geek
) over the past 18 months the only pair that don´t seem to have suffered any abscesses are the never shod hind feet of the healthy youngster.As with any illness though I´m certain that abscesses and certainly recurrent abscesses have a multifactorial pathology.
Rambling but I´ve been pondering this for a while
TwoStroke
Well-Known Member
My understanding of the circulation of the hoof is that it's the expansion and contraction of the 'hoof mechanism' as Jaime Jackson calls it (the systematic loading and unloading of the hoof in flight) which pumps blood through the hoof and back up into the leg. I thought the 'frog pump' thing had been debunked?
BeesKnees
Well-Known Member
Aha, so what Snopuma and you are talking about is crush syndrome, yes? The risk of shock and renal failure from the build up of muscle breakdown products from damaged muscle tissue.
These products are myoglobin, potassium and phosphorus. Normal protein and elements vital for human functioning when in the correct levels and in the correct places.
Not 'toxins' pooling into 'good and bad'
Brightbay
Well-Known Member
Excellent post, Simoniet
TwoSroke, it was also my understanding that evidence for the frog as pump had failed to materialise.
TwoSroke, it was also my understanding that evidence for the frog as pump had failed to materialise.
tallyho!
Following a strict mediterranean diet...
I see. Well, I shall go and have further musings... Just changed the poultice now and not much there so hope it's the end of that.
She also throws more event lines than I am used to but white line literally just a line and hoof wall like marble. I have a job to rasp it! Her soles are also solid. She doesn't I flinch walking over stones, the average rock cruncher I would say, so yes I think balancing the diet definitely needs looking at...
ester
Not slacking multitasking
Aha, so what Snopuma and you are talking about is crush syndrome, yes? The risk of shock and renal failure from the build up of muscle breakdown products from damaged muscle tissue.
These products are myoglobin, potassium and phosphorus. Normal protein and elements vital for human functioning when in the correct levels and in the correct places.
Not 'toxins' pooling into 'good and bad'
ahh I understand more now thanks
BeesKnees
Well-Known Member
ahh I understand more now thanks
Yup I find a bit of physiological detail quite helpful too
Actually having just renewed my First Aid, I was quite shocked by some of the vague explanations given by the trainer. Perhaps they just assume we don't need to know, or are potentially too thick to understand it
Mind you, the trainer also told us that it isn't much benefit to collapse and need First Aid outside a GP surgery as the Doctors know less about CPR than first aid trained people........
As you can imagine this made my GP husband laugh! He has to re-do his CPR and Defibrillator training all the time, and has done more resuscitations in the last couple of years than this trainer had done in her whole adult lifetime with St John Ambulance (it was two, she told us).
ester
Not slacking multitasking
my physiology modules were some time ago
I'll surmise from that given that the horse doesn't have any muscles below the knee that the products of muscle breakdown from a crush injury are unlikely to be problematic.
I'll surmise from that given that the horse doesn't have any muscles below the knee that the products of muscle breakdown from a crush injury are unlikely to be problematic.
Pale Rider
Well-Known Member
simionet
Two things
Both my horses when shod had multiple abscesses, but I wasn´t aware of them. It was only when I had their shoes taken off and started to look at their feet properly (bad owner used to leave feet to the farrier!) that I noticed they each had several small (and some slightly larger) abscess exit holes in the hoof wall. They hadn´t cause any lameness, I had been eventing these horses so trust me I would have noticed! So for the people who say their horses have never had an abscess, they are not always symptomatic.
The most common abscesses we suffer, dental abscesses are often asymptomatic as they establish a drainage tract. They are painful when there is no path of drainage and pressure builds.
These abscesses are caused by death of the tissue inside the tooth and subsequent bacterial ingress. These bugs set up camp in the bone around the tooth and depènding on the interaction between the types of bugs and host response you may get the build up of pus.
Like hooves teeth can be tender to pressure when you have this situation which may range from a slight tenderness on biting to ranging pain. For this reason I don´t buy into the idea that hoof abscesses are always non weight bearing (as I´ve been told by many a farrier) and there is likely to be a range of symptoms from none to grumbling to the classic pointing- foot-three legged-hop!
In comparison to dental abscesses there seems to be little solid info on the pathophysiology of hoof abscesses but I suspect it is a lot more complex than the simple foreign body entry often cited (although this may be one cause- as per Tallyhos splinter )
Host immunity has a massive role in how abscesses develop. My cushings horse had many more abscess exit holes than the healthy youngster. Since being barefoot for a year he has only had one, a rather massive one, completely asymptomatic that became evident recently when one of his heels fell off! He has been on pergolide or a month and is doing really well so I will watch with interest for future abscesses.
Of all the eight hooves I´ve been monitoring closely (I´m talking crawling in the dirt with a magnifying glass, hoof geek ) over the past 18 months the only pair that don´t seem to have suffered any abscesses are the never shod hind feet of the healthy youngster.
As with any illness though I´m certain that abscesses and certainly recurrent abscesses have a multifactorial pathology.
Rambling but I´ve been pondering this for a while
Super post.
Two things
Both my horses when shod had multiple abscesses, but I wasn´t aware of them. It was only when I had their shoes taken off and started to look at their feet properly (bad owner used to leave feet to the farrier!) that I noticed they each had several small (and some slightly larger) abscess exit holes in the hoof wall. They hadn´t cause any lameness, I had been eventing these horses so trust me I would have noticed! So for the people who say their horses have never had an abscess, they are not always symptomatic.
The most common abscesses we suffer, dental abscesses are often asymptomatic as they establish a drainage tract. They are painful when there is no path of drainage and pressure builds.
These abscesses are caused by death of the tissue inside the tooth and subsequent bacterial ingress. These bugs set up camp in the bone around the tooth and depènding on the interaction between the types of bugs and host response you may get the build up of pus.
Like hooves teeth can be tender to pressure when you have this situation which may range from a slight tenderness on biting to ranging pain. For this reason I don´t buy into the idea that hoof abscesses are always non weight bearing (as I´ve been told by many a farrier) and there is likely to be a range of symptoms from none to grumbling to the classic pointing- foot-three legged-hop!
In comparison to dental abscesses there seems to be little solid info on the pathophysiology of hoof abscesses but I suspect it is a lot more complex than the simple foreign body entry often cited (although this may be one cause- as per Tallyhos splinter )
Host immunity has a massive role in how abscesses develop. My cushings horse had many more abscess exit holes than the healthy youngster. Since being barefoot for a year he has only had one, a rather massive one, completely asymptomatic that became evident recently when one of his heels fell off! He has been on pergolide or a month and is doing really well so I will watch with interest for future abscesses.
Of all the eight hooves I´ve been monitoring closely (I´m talking crawling in the dirt with a magnifying glass, hoof geek ) over the past 18 months the only pair that don´t seem to have suffered any abscesses are the never shod hind feet of the healthy youngster.
As with any illness though I´m certain that abscesses and certainly recurrent abscesses have a multifactorial pathology.
Rambling but I´ve been pondering this for a while
Super post.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
PR either use a device that will quote for you or please start marking quotes in your post with italics "[ i]" and "[ /i]" or as a quote "[ quote]" and "[ /quote]", without the spaces, beginning and end of the piece that you are quoting will do it
Your posts are SO difficult to understand!!!
Your posts are SO difficult to understand!!!
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Pale Rider
Well-Known Member
"Quote"(cptrayes
PR either use a device that will quote for you or please start marking quotes in your post with italics "[ i]" and "[ /i]" or as a quote "[ quote]" and "[ /quote]", without the spaces, beginning and end of the piece that you are quoting will do it)Quote"
PR either use a device that will quote for you or please start marking quotes in your post with italics "[ i]" and "[ /i]" or as a quote "[ quote]" and "[ /quote]", without the spaces, beginning and end of the piece that you are quoting will do it)Quote"
tallyho!
Following a strict mediterranean diet...
Just use the quote button PR!!! Please!!!
MagicMelon
Well-Known Member
My experience of this is having a pony who had laminitis seriously as a 5yo. We were told by our farrier he had to be shod so he was for years. He got on average 2 absesses a year, every single year without fail. However, we changed him to barefoot about 4 years ago and (touch wood) he's not had one since! So I would absolutely say that it has helped hugely in keeping absesses away.
MerrySherryRider
Well-Known Member
Regarding OP's observation regarding the frequency of abcesses in unshod horses, I was under the same impression due to the number of references in barefoot posts on here.
In my own experience, it has been far more common amongst unshod horses and this summer we've had 4 horses affected, only one of whom was shod. One of mine, (unshod) had an abcess 2 months ago. She was always shod until 8 months ago, never footy or sensitive on rough ground etc, etc.
The vet recommended shoes to protect the foot. However, I've used hoof putty instead.
Due to the continual wet ground, I do feel that if she had been shod, gravel would not have entered the white line, enabling the abcess to form.
I don't quite understand how a poster can say that an abcess would go unnoticed in a shod horse, surely, the symptoms are the same ?
In my own experience, it has been far more common amongst unshod horses and this summer we've had 4 horses affected, only one of whom was shod. One of mine, (unshod) had an abcess 2 months ago. She was always shod until 8 months ago, never footy or sensitive on rough ground etc, etc.
The vet recommended shoes to protect the foot. However, I've used hoof putty instead.
Due to the continual wet ground, I do feel that if she had been shod, gravel would not have entered the white line, enabling the abcess to form.
I don't quite understand how a poster can say that an abcess would go unnoticed in a shod horse, surely, the symptoms are the same ?