Barefoot horse suddenly very footsore.

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wyrdsister

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Hello all,

I could do with some advice from other barefoot folk. I've very recently moved yards (7 days ago) from a conventional set up (yard 1: stabled at night, turn out all day most days on cattle grass but unfertilized, mixed surfaces to work on including two sand schools, fields, and tracks of varying degrees from grit to downright rocky) to a barefoot friendly yard (yard 2: 24/7 turnout on a mixture of old grass and sand/fine grit tracks with shelters and hay feeding stations). My completely sound, rock-crunching barefoot horse is now very sore on all four feet!

The changes I can identify are:

-- Moved one side of a lake to the other (slightly nicer microclimate)
-- Moved from unfertilized grass (but still cattle grass) to old pasture
-- One source of good quality hay to another
-- Moved to 24/7 turn-out so no time standing in on straw but plenty of dry areas to get to despite the eternal rain.
-- Moved from Agrobs Alpengrun, Linseed, & FP (with the odd handful of speedibeet to eat some Danilon recently -- she broke a tooth and had it removed in mid December) to Thunderbrooks chaff, Linseed & FP (with the odd handful of speedibeet as above).

This horse has previously lived in a very conventional set-up virtually identical to yard 1 but with richly fertilized cattle grass (yard 3) and never had a footsore day. She didn't react like this when she was moved as a 3 year old from a 24/7 turn out herd in Essex to live with me on yard 3 in Devon, nor when we moved from yard 3 to yard 1 in another county six months ago -- again, she barely seemed to notice.

How can moving from a less than ideal set-up to a supposedly ideal set-up run by a qualified EP suddenly create a crippled horse?! (I'm feeling horribly guilty and the only reason I haven't taken her straight back to yard 1 already is that my partner and two horses have settled in fine at yard 2 and both (also barefoot) seem fine. Help!
 
Laminitis for whatever reason? Frosty grass, too much grass growth, age of horse, i.e. cushings.

If the YO is an experienced barefooter there are other channels to explore like mineral unbalance including copper, but you need someone with a lot of knowledge for that.

It is heartbreaking when problems suddenly arise like this, so I hope you get to the bottom of it soon.
 
I'm battling a footsore girl. I'm convinced it's the wet. Stand in the bath for 10 minutes and then walk on a knobbly carpet with bare feet and I'm pretty sure you get a similar issue with yourself. The wet is also allowing a previously thrush free pony to get slightly smelly frogs.

Then again, the fluctuations in grass sugar levels may well be contributory. We've had wet and warmer than usual, followed by a cold, frosty snap which has immediately jumped back up to 10 in the sunshine.

Keep at it. I hope you get to the bottom of it soon.
 
presuming it has not been trimmed (or anyone has tried to adjust it's feet without your knowledge) and that you have checked for thrush then the most significant differences seem to be changing from agrobs to thunderbrooks and changing from in at night to 24/7 out. I have known horses sore on alfalfa chaff (as opposed to alfalfa pellets) there appears to be something in chaff, possibly as part of the manufacturing process. So one thing you could try is getting rid of the chaff (even if it isn't alfalfa) and going back to agrobs.
The second point of 24/7 out is something along the lines of orangehorse's first sentence. For some reason 24/7 doesn't suit, it is getting too much grass, there is more frost at the new place or the feet are not getting the chance to dry out each night on straw or possibly the feet being cold at night if out 24/7 when previously they were on warmer straw. It has been very cold at night this last week. Not for one minute suggesting yours has lami but one of mine prone to lami would be footsore if put out in the daytime on cold grass unless she was booted. Temperature can make a difference.Possibly the stress of moving to a completely different set up has caused stress and laminitis.

What does the EP think the problem is?
 
Orangehorse said:
Laminitis for whatever reason? Frosty grass, too much grass growth, age of horse, i.e. cushings.

If the YO is an experienced barefooter there are other channels to explore like mineral unbalance including copper, but you need someone with a lot of knowledge for that.

It is heartbreaking when problems suddenly arise like this, so I hope you get to the bottom of it soon.
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Gods, I hope not! She's 5, no history of metabolic problems, been astonishingly tolerant of less than ideal conditions on yards 1 & 3. YO is looking into mineral rebalancing. Thanks for the words of encouragement.
 
HeresHoping said:
I'm battling a footsore girl. I'm convinced it's the wet. Stand in the bath for 10 minutes and then walk on a knobbly carpet with bare feet and I'm pretty sure you get a similar issue with yourself. The wet is also allowing a previously thrush free pony to get slightly smelly frogs.

Then again, the fluctuations in grass sugar levels may well be contributory. We've had wet and warmer than usual, followed by a cold, frosty snap which has immediately jumped back up to 10 in the sunshine.

Keep at it. I hope you get to the bottom of it soon.
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Thanks. I'm assuming something about the change in yard has really upset her system, because she's tolerated wet ground and fluctuations in grass sugar through similar abrupt weather changes before just fine. It's trying to pinpoint whether it's one thing or everything.
 
paddy555 said:
presuming it has not been trimmed (or anyone has tried to adjust it's feet without your knowledge) and that you have checked for thrush then the most significant differences seem to be changing from agrobs to thunderbrooks and changing from in at night to 24/7 out. I have known horses sore on alfalfa chaff (as opposed to alfalfa pellets) there appears to be something in chaff, possibly as part of the manufacturing process. So one thing you could try is getting rid of the chaff (even if it isn't alfalfa) and going back to agrobs.
The second point of 24/7 out is something along the lines of orangehorse's first sentence. For some reason 24/7 doesn't suit, it is getting too much grass, there is more frost at the new place or the feet are not getting the chance to dry out each night on straw or possibly the feet being cold at night if out 24/7 when previously they were on warmer straw. It has been very cold at night this last week. Not for one minute suggesting yours has lami but one of mine prone to lami would be footsore if put out in the daytime on cold grass unless she was booted. Temperature can make a difference.Possibly the stress of moving to a completely different set up has caused stress and laminitis.

What does the EP think the problem is?
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No, no trimming changes -- she hasn't been done by the new EP yet and I won't let anyone touch her unless I'm there as she has a forelimb confirmation fault that doesn't care for abrupt changes in foot balance. No thrush. I'm changing her back to Agrobs (had a horse that didn't get on with Thunderbrooks previously, but LP was a metabolic disaster, WW isn't) and getting rid of all the speedibeet too. I'm wondering if 24/7 doesn't suit her (though she grew up in a herd out 24/7 until she was 3 and lives out 24/7 all summer). There's actually *less* frost at the new place -- it's on the side of a hill and warmer. I'd not heard that feet being cold can be an issue -- can you elaborate?

EP thinks its stress but doesn't think it's lami. I'm tossing up just handing in my notice and going back to our previous yard -- though that may make marital life a little lively!
 
It could simply be stress of the move. Stress plays havoc with the metabolism in sensitive horses, I agree with your EP, and she could have inflamed soles. I'd try a set of hoof testers on her. I'd be tempted to give her bute for a few days with the vets permission, and then see how she goes on.
 
ycbm said:
It could simply be stress of the move. Stress plays havoc with the metabolism in sensitive horses, I agree with your EP, and she could have inflamed soles. I'd try a set of hoof testers on her. I'd be tempted to give her bute for a few days with the vets permission, and then see how she goes on.
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Yeah, I'm starting to suspect stress is the most likely cause. She's on bute anyway for her healing mouth, but have upped it. Question is, do I bail out and take her back to the place she was happy or persevere and hope her feet come right as she settles in?
 
God, aren't horses frustrating beasts! Could be stress, could be the 24/7 turnout, and the food you're eliminating already.

For the other two obvious possible causes I would give it a couple more weeks to see if she adjusts.

My only other thought would be the bute - the fact she was receiving it when you changed yards may have stopped her tissues adjusting to change as normal...?
 
TB chaff can be pretty variable in its sugar / starch content, so may be you were unlucky and got a batch at the high end. Any chance of bringing in overnight on to shavings to let the feet dry out?
 
SEL said:
TB chaff can be pretty variable in its sugar / starch content, so may be you were unlucky and got a batch at the high end. Any chance of bringing in overnight on to shavings to let the feet dry out?
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I knew I didn't like that food! And not overnight but can do it by day, will start now. Thank you!
 
DabDab said:
God, aren't horses frustrating beasts! Could be stress, could be the 24/7 turnout, and the food you're eliminating already.

For the other two obvious possible causes I would give it a couple more weeks to see if she adjusts.

My only other thought would be the bute - the fact she was receiving it when you changed yards may have stopped her tissues adjusting to change as normal...?
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Mine seem to like scaring me! And maybe the Danilon is a contributing factor. In theory she can come off it for her mouth this week, in practice she might be staying on a while until her feet settlel
 
It may just be more grass than she can handle at this stage - if you're getting any frost then it might be a sugar overload for her. It sounds like a good idea to bring her in during the day and see how she goes.
 
wyrdsister said:
I knew I didn't like that food!
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I got a bag to tide me over at Christmas time at the same time as I moved yards. It might be a coincidence but mine has been a total pain in the backside ever since! I changed him back on to the Agrobs one yesterday so will be interesting to see if he changes.
 
wyrdsister said:
I knew I didn't like that food! And not overnight but can do it by day, will start now. Thank you!
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Unless you are feeding it by the bucket load, I really cannot see that it will make a significant difference!!
More likely stress and an increase in grass sugars, also, is there clover in your new pasture?

I would be very concerned if this was mine and she was sore despite already being on Bute.
 
If she is suddenly very footsore you need to call a vet and have the feet examined - not a farrier, not an EP but a vet. The horse may have laminitis which is life threatenitng or bruising or corns. You will also need to provide her with painf relief and a soft place to stand to alleviate suffering in the short term.
 
SusieT said:
If she is suddenly very footsore you need to call a vet and have the feet examined - not a farrier, not an EP but a vet. The horse may have laminitis which is life threatenitng or bruising or corns. You will also need to provide her with painf relief and a soft place to stand to alleviate suffering in the short term.
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SusieT, thanks for your concern, but I'm not an amateur. I know when to call the vet and would have been on the phone yesterday if it were necessary - if my yo hadn't beaten me to it! WW doesn't have life threatening lami (know the signs for it and lgl all too well) or corns. She's had a stress reaction to a yard change after a surgery and medication. She's off grass on a track with plenty of access to soft standing and bedded shelters, which she's ignored, and is now in by day on a bed so she can lie down to sleep, which she doesn't seem to have done since we arrived. She's footy in the sense of no longer comfortable on rough ground, fine on flat or sand. She's only on one Danilon a day because of her mouth not her feet. If a good sleep and a few days letting her system settle down while guarding against any further stress and sugar doesn't improve things I'll investigate further. In the meantime, she's not suffering or miserable (her facial expressions are normal and she's not snappy, which are her indicators) , she's tired, cuddly, and enjoying a chill out.

I kow forums aren't a tricky place to ask for or give advice as the horse isn't in front of anyone except the OP. I appreciate your thoughts but she's really okay. I wanted some thoughts on probable triggers for the change from utterly fine to iffy, not a substitute for a vet :-)
 
TiddlyPom, FairyClare, she's on one bute once a day as her mouth is still healing. As I've said above to SusieT, she's footy on bad ground, which is new for her, but still sound on the flat. The vets are on my speed dial and the EP/YO works closely with them on rehab cases sometimes alongside farriers. If there was any question over whether the vet was needed, the vet would be here. I'm keeping a close eye and if anything changes negatively the vet will be called.
 
In your OP you said 'My completely sound, rock-crunching barefoot horse is now very sore on all four feet!' Later you backtrack and say that she isn't actually very sore.

The danilon could be masking all sorts, IMHO best be cautious and treat as lami in the interim ie box rest on a deep shavings bed etc. Until she's off the danilon, you won't really know what's cooking.
 
Tiddlypom said:
In your OP you said 'My completely sound, rock-crunching barefoot horse is now very sore on all four feet!' Later you backtrack and say that she isn't actually very sore.

The danilon could be masking all sorts, IMHO best be cautious and treat as lami in the interim ie box rest on a deep shavings bed etc. Until she's off the danilon, you won't really know what's cooking.
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I was very stressed yesterday and I am now clarifying what was in hindsight an overreaction. I've managed for many years and, eventually lost, two seriously metabolically compromised horses and it's left me more anxious than I'd realised. Today's picture is more realistic. WW is okay. The triggers that have upset her system are being addressed and she's being monitored in case anything changes. She's snoring atm but is in by day and out on the track at night and will stay on on that regime for a few days until her system settles and her feet return to normal. Her pulses are normal, she's moving fine on the flat and the soft, and she's fine in herself. If anything changes, even slightly, for the worse, I will call my vet and bring her in completely.

Again, I appreciate your concern and I apologise for the misleading information in the OP.
 
So now because you might have to spend money on a vet the horse is suddenly 'fine' ?
This is where 'barefoot' gets a bad name. leaving a horse to suffer and assuming its just footsore (have you ever had really sore feet? Do you go out marching on concrete and grave or do you put your feet upl??) and self diagnosing because you think its 'better' for the horse to be sore than treated. I presume you've actually lifted the phone to speak to the vet? Most don't charge and if you describe it accurately I'd be very surprised if they said leave this horse out with just a bute and see what happens.
 
SusieT said:
So now because you might have to spend money on a vet the horse is suddenly 'fine' ?
This is where 'barefoot' gets a bad name. leaving a horse to suffer and assuming its just footsore (have you ever had really sore feet? Do you go out marching on concrete and grave or do you put your feet upl??) and self diagnosing because you think its 'better' for the horse to be sore than treated. I presume you've actually lifted the phone to speak to the vet? Most don't charge and if you describe it accurately I'd be very surprised if they said leave this horse out with just a bute and see what happens.
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SusieT, I have nothing polite to say to you. You know neither me nor my horses, nor can you have any idea of the kind of money I have and will always be willing to spend whenever my horses need it. You cannot diagnose her via an Internet forum. You are why H&H gets a bad name.
 
apercrumbie said:
I think I would still be a bit concerned if my horse was footsore on pain relief.
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I am a *bit* concerned. This is an unusual response from her, hence the desire to work out why she's gone from rock crunching to footy on particular surfaces, to address the causes, and to make sure she's back to normal.

For what it's worth, I rang my vet, who knows me and the horse. The advice on hearing her symptoms and seeing a video of her trot up?

"Do what you're doing & stay off the Internet forums. You know better than that!"

I shall be taking said advice. Thanks to those who offered sensible and constructive responses.
 
Hi, from what you describe this sounds like the change to 24/7 living out in these waterlogged conditions is making her feet softer than in the previous location. Therefore she's feeling everything more. So either stable her by night or boot her to ride.
 
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