Barefoot horses?

Farriertom said:
Just to put everyone's mind at rest barefoot trimmers have 3 weeks training on a course they have to pay for. There knowledge of horses hooves and anatomy is poor and I regularly encounter horses hooves that have been violently butchered by these people. Stick with a farrier believe me they really do know what there talking about and vets will back me up on that !
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Thats not true.
 
cptrayes said:
There are a few posts on here about footie Cleveland Bays and I have heard of others before. I believe that they are prone to EPSM because of their draft breeding. You might find a better result if you switch them onto a high oil/high vitamin E diet. Restricted grass intake will probably also be required to get them totally rock crunching.
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That's really interesting, thank you!! She does do better on v restricted grass, with soaked hay for her fibre. She gets about 150g of microionized linseed each day, but I wonder if she is EPSM if that would be enough then? How is EPSM diagnosed, can it be done just by a blood test, or is it more a set of symptoms that are relieved by diet?



Farriertom - you are speaking out of your bottom. You do your profession a disservice by spreading inacuracies about other professions.
 
Farriertom said:
Just to put everyone's mind at rest barefoot trimmers have 3 weeks training on a course they have to pay for. There knowledge of horses hooves and anatomy is poor and I regularly encounter horses hooves that have been violently butchered by these people. Stick with a farrier believe me they really do know what there talking about and vets will back me up on that !
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Sorry, that is total garbage; the four farriers I've had in the last two years haven't got a clue about trimming, leaving the walls long, cutting the frogs right back and not addressing the underun heels and flair.
 
Farriertom said:
Just to put everyone's mind at rest barefoot trimmers have 3 weeks training on a course they have to pay for. There knowledge of horses hooves and anatomy is poor and I regularly encounter horses hooves that have been violently butchered by these people. Stick with a farrier believe me they really do know what there talking about and vets will back me up on that !
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I suggest you read the course information on this site.
http://www.eptrain.co.uk/
 
AngieandBen said:
Sorry, that is total garbage; the four farriers I've had in the last two years haven't got a clue about trimming, leaving the walls long, cutting the frogs right back and not addressing the underun heels and flair.
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I am sure you have had bad farriers, can't believe they let rear heels get under-run for one thing, maybe they want you to go back to shoeing, which pays them three times as much?
 
I use a trimmer. When I came to our yard, another girl and I were the only ones to use her (she came at that girl's recommendation); by now, she does about 1/3 of the yard. The clients range from several youngsters that have never been shod (including a Clydie), through the chronically-round Spooky Pony, to two TBs---one going unshod for the first time ever at 21, the other having been written off as a youngster as "will never be sound enough to work". She's now going XC barefoot without boots...

This trimmer certainly did more than a 3-week course, and is often doing CPD to further her education, and organising educational events that are attended not only by the "barefoot cult", but by farriers and vets as well.

The really good trimmers, in my experience, would very much like to see regulation of their trade, and are working actively with other equine healthcare providers to bring this about.
 
I use a farrier, and he has now started doing the rest of the yard I am on. I started using him several years ago and now I have Misty (a laminitic who has not had the best history with his feet) and we are back in his area, we could use him again. He is absolutely fantastic and assesses the horse's hooves first to see how they wear and asks what sort of work you do with said horse and then trims accordingly. Since using him the quality of all the horses hooves have improved dramatically, Misty's feet are almost back to the right length and he is so much more comfortable.
There are however some terrible farriers about! Have used 2 that I would never touch again, they had no idea about unshod horses and were very pushy, always wanting you to have shoes which was stupid as Pharaoh always had wonderful feet and was very sure footed so there was no point in doing something unnecessary. I can understand why people would use a trimmer if there was a lack of decent farriers in the area and if it was a choice between an awful farrier and a decent trimmer, I would go for the trimmer!
 
Tinypony said:
I did a bit of informal research and decided that the Rider's Rasp might not be a good idea. They are pricey and everyone I found who had used them didn't rate them. My gang's hooves are now too hard for sandpaper, so I'm experimenting with a Stanley Surform, as I have trouble with my wrist and find a regular rasp hard going.
I wouldn't want to be working on length/foot balance, but I'm happy maintaining the roll on the toes myself. I am influenced in that by the fact that one of mine is a bit of a dire case and needs careful balancing. (If left to "self trim" he gradually goes out of balance).
The Saddlery Shop are very helpful if anyone is considering boots.
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The sandpaper block I have is pretty coarse it is not the normal DIY block, red , not black, and is for hard use by professional painters!
I tried Surform and used it for summer trimming for horses out to grass, ,they will do a good job with re moving hoof horn, but I would rather use a light farrier type double sided rasp as I think the surform is just not convenient, it is not designed for the job.
 
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I agree with mrsd... just get a rasp... the riders rasp, blocks and things are gimmicks.

You'll be surprised how easy it is... put gloves on though. It WAS easier than I thought and took the knuckle off my thumb. I too just do the rolling and filing off chips. I take no wall off.
 
while we are on the subject of rasping,do you all have your own tripod thingy :) lol i dont know what the "correct" name for them is!!
i could really do with one as horse doesnt appreciate putting foot on one of those foot stalls you find in supermarkets!!and it makes life very difficult.ive seen some homemade ones online but wondered what other people use???
 
jackessex said:
while we are on the subject of rasping,do you all have your own tripod thingy :) lol i dont know what the "correct" name for them is!!
i could really do with one as horse doesnt appreciate putting foot on one of those foot stalls you find in supermarkets!!and it makes life very difficult.ive seen some homemade ones online but wondered what other people use???
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Hoofstands?.... I would hope to manage without, maybe you could ask a farriers apprentice to make one for you?
 
Have a mixture of unshod and shod horses/ponies. Cant say I agree with farriers wanting to shoe, mine certainly does whats best for the horses and says he could make more just trimming. No overheads just his time and petrol.
 
classicalfan said:
A barefoot trimmer is usually better. Many farriers will do a trim but they tend to trim for a shoe which is not the same thing at all.
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Sorry but rubbish, my horses are unshod and are seen by my VERY capable farrier every 6 weeks, not ONE of them has ever been lame in the 15 years they have been unshod, in that time I have had 2 farriers (I moved counties) and BOTH were brilliant. Farriers train for years to understand the working of the horse's foot, how on earth can someone who has trained for days/weeks have the same knowledge?

None of my horses are on faddy diets either, none of them have ever been 'footy' even the good doers, it's called having horsesense :rolleyes:
 
MrsD123 said:
The sandpaper block I have is pretty coarse it is not the normal DIY block, red , not black, and is for hard use by professional painters!
I tried Surform and used it for summer trimming for horses out to grass, ,they will do a good job with re moving hoof horn, but I would rather use a light farrier type double sided rasp as I think the surform is just not convenient, it is not designed for the job.
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Just to explain, I have RSI, so I sometimes have to adapt how I do things a bit.
I don't have a hoof stand, but they do look handy.
I must be missing something, where did the Farriertom quote come from? Anyway, he doesn't help the cause of farriers much. It's farriers like him who knowingly try to spread false information who help to set the two "sides" against each other. There are good and bad farriers and trimmers. We just need to get enough knowledge to spot the difference and make informed choices.
 
I use a traffic cone (small one not those massive ones) with a broken tennis ball on top.
 
Amaranta said:
Sorry but rubbish, my horses are unshod and are seen by my VERY capable farrier every 6 weeks, not ONE of them has ever been lame in the 15 years they have been unshod, in that time I have had 2 farriers (I moved counties) and BOTH were brilliant. Farriers train for years to understand the working of the horse's foot, how on earth can someone who has trained for days/weeks have the same knowledge?

None of my horses are on faddy diets either, none of them have ever been 'footy' even the good doers, it's called having horsesense :rolleyes:
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Good for you :)
 
This thread is becoming really interesting... in terms of the Farrier / trimmer debate... I think it comes down to the fact that there are good and bad in every proffession ands whether you are fortunate enough to have good experience of either.

I think barefoot trimmers do a LOT of research into dietary factors which affect hoof growth / sensitivity rather than just saying (as I overheard one farrier saying just this morning) 'some horses feet are just like that' without any explaination as to WHY!!!

As for CBs being sensitive having something to do with them being a draft breed I think the problem is more linked to their origins - i.e the rough yorkshire moors where they survived on scrubby forrage (much like most of our natives) and NOT super rich fertilised pastures that modern livery yards have to offer.

I am quite fortunate in that my farmer isn't overzealous with the fertiliser (we haven't had any so far this year) which I think helps my boy to a certain extent.

Thats an interesting point re ESPM... my boy is on a relatively plain diet and I was supplementing with sunflower oil until recently when I felt he was putting on too much weight... (he is NOT fat BTW. just right. but I want to keep it that way.) I will look into it some more.

I recently bought a riders rasp and whilst it is tricky to get the hang of, with practice I am getting better with it. I find it handy for keeping his toes rounded and feet bal;anced between trims... it isn't meant for full blown rasping, just little tidy ups! My boy also seems to have improved since I've been doing this, making me believe that the trim plays quite a big part in soundness.
 
It's nice to see that times are changing - when I posted about 2 years ago asking for suggestions for a cheap hoof stand, I go several very nasty replies that said I shouldn't be trimming my own and should spend my money on a farrier... these people who replied didn't know me from Adam of course. Now it seems to be much more acceptable, as is barefoot in general. I have a farriers hoofstand, but it is very tall - I tend to use it laid down, so their feet rest on one of the legs. This gives me a long bit to stand on too! I have some axle-stands, but haven't got around to converting them with the tennis ball on top.
With regard to 'faddy' diets, my mare has been barefoot for 10 years now. She has always been fine, but since being on a mineral supplement to complement her forage, she is better. My other two improved similarly once on the bespoke supplement.
 
I use a UKNHCP trimmer.

Wouldn't go back to farriers after they performed impromptu surgery to my horse's feet for no reason.....!

Quite a few people from my yard have converted from the farriers to said trimmer and are now sound and happy with the trimmer.

If farriers were the only option - why are more and more people using trimmers?

There's room for both. The answer is to use whichever you are happier with - just find a GOOD one....!
 
Also what strikes me about people who use farriers and farriers themselves, assume that these trimmers are just some Jo Bloggs that suddenly one day thought "I fancy a career change from this banking lark.... maybe I shall take up trimming hooves?" Then, sign up on a 3 day course in the local hotel. (Its not actually, the EPA/UKNHCP ones are 4 months with practicals and then a long apprenticeship)

The ones I've met are horse owners who have become interested in hoof health through one thing or another (lami, navi, lameness issues) and have found the path of hoofcare - it might be me one day when I have saved up enough... will you still call me an idiot then? Infact some are still farriers but choose to take on new schools of thought - the one in my village rides and trims just like my trimmer and is her back-up if she can't make it.

And anyway, a farriery qualification is 12 weeks long.... it's mainly forgework! The apprenticeship is what takes the time and really, and the skill of heating up and bending metal, then nailing it in a hoof without making the horse bleed and go lame. There is a physiology & anatomy aspect but not as in depth and certainly, there are no nutritional aspects.

(There are options for CPD but these are open to trimmers and farriers)
 
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I use a Trimmer, my farrier unfortunately let me down badly when trimming & my poor KWPN who already had a foot injury ended up being trimmed far to short.
I dont do second chances when it comes to my horses, so i then got a trimmer to come in.

My horses have thrived with the help of a trimmer.
 
I use our normal farrier. He is such an ambassador for barefoot, he would rather be trimming your barefoot horse as it is much more natural than be putting shoes on for the sake of it (and it has a massive difference in income for him)
 
ThePony said:
That's really interesting, thank you!! She does do better on v restricted grass, with soaked hay for her fibre. She gets about 150g of microionized linseed each day, but I wonder if she is EPSM if that would be enough then? How is EPSM diagnosed, can it be done just by a blood test, or is it more a set of symptoms that are relieved by diet?



Farriertom - you are speaking out of your bottom. You do your profession a disservice by spreading inacuracies about other professions.
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EPSM is a muscle biopsy test. The alternative is to get your horse onto 500ml of oil (Tesco veg oil will do fine) and 12-30,000 iu of Vitamin E (human gel capsules are cheapest, cut and squeeeze into food) and see if it improves.


Farriertom would you like to tell us how much time you spent in your apprenticeship:

1) dissecting feet

2) learning to trim horses that were hunting, eventing, showjumping or doing lots of hacking on rough surfaces without shoes on.

None is the answer for most farriers, because the syllabus does not include foot dissection and learning to trim hardworking barefoot horses only happens if the apprentice's master has some on his books.
 
Amaranta said:
Sorry but rubbish, my horses are unshod and are seen by my VERY capable farrier every 6 weeks, not ONE of them has ever been lame in the 15 years they have been unshod, in that time I have had 2 farriers (I moved counties) and BOTH were brilliant. Farriers train for years to understand the working of the horse's foot, how on earth can someone who has trained for days/weeks have the same knowledge?

None of my horses are on faddy diets either, none of them have ever been 'footy' even the good doers, it's called having horsesense :rolleyes:
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Why would anyone assume that barefoot trimmers weren't trained as farriers?
And don't be sorry. People cried 'rubbish' when they were told that the earth was round instead of flat but eventually science cured them of their ignorance.
 
cptrayes said:
I do my own and I mustang roll and bevel the toe (roll it from underneath between 11 and 2 o'clock)

There are good and bad trimmers who can be either farriers or non-farriers. A good trimmer is one that has sound working barefoot horses on their books and who never repeats a trim that has made a horse less capable than it was before it was trimmed.

Few farriers know enough to advise their clients on nutrition for good feet.
Some farriers will trim sole callous that should not be trimmed on a barefoot horse, because it's what they do to balance a foot when they fit a shoe.
Too many farriers blame hard ground for footiness that is actually caused by too much grass and shoe without resolving the underlying issue.
Trimmers can be completely unqualified and untrained and still legal, so it is difficult for people to know who they can trust.
Length of training, however, is a red herring, as most of what a farrier spends his time learning is not actually needed for a barefoot trimmer, and the amount of time a farrier spends learning how to manage hard-working barefoot horses is dependent on whether his master has any on his books, the answer to which is generally "no".
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^^agree^^^

If you need any gates making, get a farrier.
 
classicalfan said:
Why would anyone assume that barefoot trimmers weren't trained as farriers?
And don't be sorry. People cried 'rubbish' when they were told that the earth was round instead of flat but eventually science cured them of their ignorance.
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A significant number of BF trimmers originally trained as farriers and some now refuse to shoe at all.

There are good and bad in both professions. To tar all with the same brush is akin to saying all Doctors are Harold Shipman.

What to me is truly sad is that this type of debate takes time and energy from the real issue, which is bringing the UK Domestic Horse population to a better state of health.

And a hoof is a window to the horse's health, if your horse has cr*p feet then regardless of how shiny his coat is etc etc, his health is not optimal.

And if I had a 'pony' for every horse I have been told has 'genetically' poor feet, which now has great feet I could have retired some time ago.

One final point, some types of EPSM can also be diagnosed by DNA testing
 
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