Barefoot issues - may be contentious

[siennamum]

In the Winter, when we have prolonged wet, my horses can lose shoes and their horn quality deteriorates. I have to bring them in to allow their feet to dry out.

This year I think we've had quite a bit of rain. If we had this much rain in the Winter, when grass growth didn't soak up some of the wet, we would be under water. Thankfully Winter or Summer we are not accostomed to so much wet for such a prolonged period.

We clearly have loads of grass. But why do quite a few posters think it is unreasonable when there are so many posts from experienced people whose horses are suffering from sore feet - that their problem is the wet. Why is that a false assumption.

Maybe I am misinterpreting people's posts but if one were to post that their horses feet are sore, the immediate response seems to be that the owner is not managing the horse properly and that putting shoes on is a crime and will possibly give the horse laminitis.

In fact I think it is rather unsafe to recommend that people whose horses are feeling their feet shouldn't seek expert - farrier - advice and in all probablility put shoes on - if only for a couple of months till normal service is resumed.

I am not anti barefoot and see the logic in the excess sugar argument and in the importance of diet in healthy feet BUT think sometimes the advice which people really are beaten round the head with - isn't good.

 

[TwoStroke]

I think people are just keen to point out the logic gap in assuming foot problems are due to the wet, when it's often wet in winter and yet people don't have these problems. Nothing wrong with putting shoes on if owners are unable to keep their horses comfortable without - don't think anyone would say otherwise.

 

[cptrayes]

I think you will find that the advice has been being given to people whose barefoot horses went through the winter sound who are now concluding, strangely in my opinion, that the wet summer is causing their horse problems.

People ask for help and information. People like me respond. Why that is then interpreted by others who did not ask for the advice as "beating them round the head" is beyond me

Your assumption that all farriers are experts in summer footiness in barefoot horses is touching, but unfortunately incorrect. A substantial proportion of farriers first response to a footie horse who has been sound all winter is to shoe. If it's dry they blame the "hard ground", if it's wet they blame the "wet ground". With a very substantial proportion of horses it will actually be the grass, and shoes are not required at all but a restriction in grass intake is. Some owners are not able or not willing to do that, and they should, of course, shoe for the comfort of their horse.

 

[tallyho!]

Do you think it is the horn quality? The horn that is being nailed to is 6 months old and if it was good then, how can it be poor quality now? The hoof horn is pretty much dead material. It can't just change in constitution according to the weather report. However, what may be happening is the hoof material around the tiny nail holes can soften slightly, enough to lose grip of the nail. More wiggling causes it to get gradually looser. Eventually with each footfall, the nail works it's hole wider and wider eventually enough to get pulled through with enough force. You can see for yourself next time he pulls a shoe how much bigger the hole has become.

The pain could be a number of things, unlikely to be lack of shoe though. The wet can encourage fungal and bacterial infections. Even tiny ones can cause soreness. Like a splinter in your finger. Tiny but painful. Standing on an infected frog when before it was lifted off the ground by a shoe will cause significant soreness.

That is just one reason. Diet could be another, because diet ultimately dictates what hoof is laid down at the foundations and at the sole of the hoof. It is also just another possible reason, shouldn't be dismissed. Shouldn't be battered around people's heads either but it is the most common reason so worth a mention. It is a forum where people can share such experiences. Individuals can take it or leave it, that's the beauty of it.

 

[Ranyhyn]

My podiatrist seems to think this weather HAS had an effect.
Now, I know who I'd be more likely to listen to.

 

[Pale Rider]

I do think that the wet has an effect. In winter, horses are often brought in at night for example. This allows the feet to dry out.
Summer, horses out for longer, grazing is lush.
All these factors and others make a difference to the feet.
You have to take all this into account in your day to day management.

 

[tallyho!]

My podiatrist seems to think this weather HAS had an effect.
Now, I know who I'd be more likely to listen to.

I agree with that. Sheep are getting footrot, and cows. The wet is making all hooves prone to infection and it hurts.

I wonder what we are all going to do if the weather is a result of changing weather patterns and this is how life will be for this part of the globe forever more?

The jet stream will eventually stay south of us as the polar ice cap melts. The ocean currents are already moving and climate change is here to stay no matter what people tell you.

I was in the equatorial region recently and already changing monsoon season causing many problems to fish stocks and crop failures for rice and fruits.

I am afraid wet weather is here to stay for temperate climes like us.

 

[siennamum]

Do you think it is the horn quality? The horn that is being nailed to is 6 months old and if it was good then, how can it be poor quality now? The hoof horn is pretty much dead material. It can't just change in constitution according to the weather report. .

Why can't the horn change according to a weather report. If I put my hands in water for a long time, my nails soften.

My unshod horses feet are visibly wearing down, they don't do this in normal Winters, this Summer they are constantly wet, that's the only real difference. I think their feet are softer.

 

[TwoStroke]

I wonder what we are all going to do if the weather is a result of changing weather patterns and this is how life will be for this part of the globe forever more?

Yarrrrrrrrgh! Noooo!!! Can't cope!

I hate this weather .

My horses' feet are fine, though. Look the same as ever they did, so not bothered about that . But I HATE the mud. That settles it - I'm building a track system and I'll hardcore the whole damn lot. No more mud for me - no sir-eee.

 

[thatsmygirl]

There was a link on one thread here recently about the effects or actually what little effect hoof ointments etc have on hoofs as they can't pentrate into the hoof?? Anybody remember this or am I talking crap which wouldn't surprise me but if I am right and hoof ointments can't work into the hoof than surely water is the same?

 

[tallyho!]

Why can't the horn change according to a weather report. If I put my hands in water for a long time, my nails soften.

My unshod horses feet are visibly wearing down, they don't do this in normal Winters, this Summer they are constantly wet, that's the only real difference. I think their feet are softer.

Blinking Nora! I would not ride horses whose "nails" we're like human ones!!!

Why are my barefoot horses feet not wearing down in this weather? What is so different that mine are fine and yours are not? We have had constant rain here in bath.

 

[Miss L Toe]

I had my pony barefoot when he had strangles, he was stuck in a boggy field and his feet went very sore, yes the hoof material is dead and grew six months previously, but it absorbed water, just like your toenails in the bath.

 

[tallyho!]

Yarrrrrrrrgh! Noooo!!! Can't cope!

I hate this weather .

My horses' feet are fine, though. Look the same as ever they did, so not bothered about that . But I HATE the mud. That settles it - I'm building a track system and I'll hardcore the whole damn lot. No more mud for me - no sir-eee.

I know, was having a laugh with ladies at the yard about starting mud skiing down our hills!

There was a link on one thread here recently about the effects or actually what little effect hoof ointments etc have on hoofs as they can't pentrate into the hoof?? Anybody remember this or am I talking crap which wouldn't surprise me but if I am right and hoof ointments can't work into the hoof than surely water is the same?

No, there was a link. Will try and find it if I can, unless you beat me to it.

 

[cptrayes]

Why can't the horn change according to a weather report. If I put my hands in water for a long time, my nails soften.

My unshod horses feet are visibly wearing down, they don't do this in normal Winters, this Summer they are constantly wet, that's the only real difference. I think their feet are softer.

I completely agree with you that wet feet can wear worse than dry ones.

But why that would make anyone (not you) whose horse has been happy barefoot for years, shoe instead of leaving off riding on tough surfaces until it stops raining a bit, or riding only after the horse has been in and dried off, is a complete mystery to me.

 

[tallyho!]

I had my pony barefoot when he had strangles, he was stuck in a boggy field and his feet went very sore, yes the hoof material is dead and grew six months previously, but it absorbed water, just like your toenails in the bath.

It shouldn't.

We have several unshod horses and all have been standing in wet fields. None of them are sore or have prunes for feet

 

[cptrayes]

Yarrrrrrrrgh! Noooo!!! Can't cope!

I hate this weather .

My horses' feet are fine, though. Look the same as ever they did, so not bothered about that . But I HATE the mud. That settles it - I'm building a track system and I'll hardcore the whole damn lot. No more mud for me - no sir-eee.

I've spent the last month taking barrow load after barrow load of shingle and hardcore out to make paths in my field! I've moved about four tons so far and the OH has done another three. We're a bunch of nutters for sure, we barefooters !

 

[thatsmygirl]

Tallyho I won't beat you 2 it as I'm on my phone so no chance for me but was a interesting link if you can find it.

 

[Pale Rider]

Seems to me folk don't want to make the necessary allowances for the weather conditions. You don't really have to with shod horses. (until it goes its up in a big way).

 

[siennamum]

I completely agree with you that wet feet can wear worse than dry ones.

But why that would make anyone (not you) whose horse has been happy barefoot for years, shoe instead of leaving off riding on tough surfaces until it stops raining a bit, or riding only after the horse has been in and dried off, is a complete mystery to me.

I generally ride him after he's been in hos stable for a few hours, it doesn't really make a difference to how soft his feet seem to have become

If I waited till the conditions improve this year, I simply would no longer ride my horse. He has to work this year, he is currently off games till Thursday when he has shoes back on as I have to get him fit & work him.

 

[TwoStroke]

I've spent the last month taking barrow load after barrow load of shingle and hardcore out to make paths in my field! I've moved about four tons so far and the OH has done another three. We're a bunch of nutters for sure, we barefooters !

Yeah, we're a special kind of crazy . I'll be really smug come winter, though, when everyone else is knee deep in mud!

 

[siennamum]

Blinking Nora! I would not ride horses whose "nails" we're like human ones!!!

Why are my barefoot horses feet not wearing down in this weather? What is so different that mine are fine and yours are not? We have had constant rain here in bath.

Maybe I simply do more roadwork that you. Maybe my horse has more sensitive feet than yours. Maybe our fields are more muddy than yours - don't know.

You see this kind of p*ss taking is what I meant by people being beaten round the head because their views differed from yours (not you specifically) I do not think my horse has soft little human nails, but it is not beyond the realms of possibility that horses feet get softer in the wet.

 

[cptrayes]

I generally ride him after he's been in hos stable for a few hours, it doesn't really make a difference to how soft his feet seem to have become

If I waited till the conditions improve this year, I simply would no longer ride my horse. He has to work this year, he is currently off games till Thursday when he has shoes back on as I have to get him fit & work him.

Can you boot him, or ride out every other day intead of every day, for example? I can completely understand if you don't want to, but that's a different question from having to.

The question we were answering on the main thread that I think prompted you to start this thread was by someone who was, in the end, clearly trying to avoid shoeing a horse that had not had shoes on for 6 years. In her case, we have been able to suggest a number of things to try, and she has put the shoeing back by a couple of weeks to give it a go.

Your case is totally different, if your lifestyle and your horse's requires shoes to meet both your needs.

 

[siennamum]

Can you boot him, or ride out every other day intead of every day, for example? I can completely understand if you don't want to, but that's a different question from having to.

The question we were answering on the main thread that I think prompted you to start this thread was by someone who was, in the end, clearly trying to avoid shoeing a horse that had not had shoes on for 6 years. In her case, we have been able to suggest a number of things to try, and she has put the shoeing back by a couple of weeks to give it a go.

Your case is totally different, if your lifestyle and your horse's requires shoes to meet both your needs.

I am being a bit unfair as I do appreciate all the useful information I get on here and have become a big fan of saving money & doing my horse a favour by going without shoes. I really want to crack on with horse as he is young, he has missed all but a couple of outings due to weather and is now footsore. I've put shoes on him before & it does work, so will do so for convenience.

 

[TrasaM]

I've been doing some reading up on this..ie are wet hooves softer. I found an article 'Northern Virginia Equine' .. Managing wet Feet.

Seems their research shows substantial differences in both structure and form when horses feet are constantly saturated. Genetics also come into play with TBs in particular being very susceptible. If this is the case then maybe shoeing is not the best solution as you'll be putting nails into already compromised hoof.

Perhaps someone more knowledgable than I could have a look and interpret the info more accurately. Ta.

 

[TwoStroke]

Genetics also come into play with TBs in particular being very susceptible.

This part makes me . TB's do NOT have genetically weaker feet. Of course, genetics play a part in everything, but it's not specific to TBs - they have the same % of good feet as any other breed - if diet and environment allow.

I have a TB and a TBxWB - their genetics to not affect how soft their feet are. They both are living out 24/7 atm and are fine. My livery's horse is a TB, again living out, and is fine. Funnily enough, they're all on the same diet; low NSCs, high fibre, and decent mineral supplement.

Moisure in the ground can affect the hydration of the sole, but not the hoof wall, as this study shows http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22369538. I imagine that problems only arise when horses spend 23 hours a day in soft conditions, then are expected to work for 1 hour a day in rough conditions, which their feet are not accustomed to.

So the solution would be to boot, shoe, or take the horse out of the wet conditions for longer. That's my two penneth, anywho.

ETA: But this is still often only a problem during the summer months... so refer back to grass .

 

[millitiger]

OP, I think you asked me a few weeks ago about my barefoot boy in the CR section?

I think we have similar demands; we have young, green horses who need to be progressing and working this year as they aren't established enough to have time off every time it rains.

I NEED to keep my horse hacking and going out and working to keep his brain active- he has just turned a real corner in his attitude and work and I'm not foresaking that to keep him barefoot.

I keep him at livery and don't have the resources/ability/inclination to set up track systems, do forage analysis, have him in hoof boots (not particularly safe for fast work/jumping anyway) etc.

I don't want to limit his grass intake as he needs more weight anyway and when he was on a bare paddock with ad-lib hay, yes his feet were fine but he couldn't get condition on- he is on better grass and looks so much better now and I accept i need to shoe him to see that improvement.

I too get sick of feeling like some sort of failure because I have shod my horse but I am 100% sure I have done the right thing for him and the right thing for me but putting a pair of fronts on, and shock horror, he will be having a full set next time!

 

[TrasaM]

This part makes me . TB's do NOT have genetically weaker feet. Of course, genetics play a part in everything, but it's not specific to TBs - they have the same % of good feet as any other breed - if diet and environment

Moisure in the ground can affect the hydration of the sole, but not the hoof wall, as this study shows http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22369538. I imagine that problems only arise when horses spend 23 hours a day in soft conditions, then are expected to work for 1 hour a day in rough conditions, which their feet are not accustomed to.

So the solution would be to boot, shoe, or take the horse out of the wet conditions for longer. That's my two penneth, anywho.

ETA: But this is still often only a problem during the summer months... so refer back to grass .

I don't have a particular opinion on this and am just trying to help my friend out with a bit of research. I've read the article you linked to and re read the one I referred to and with regards to the hoof wall they seem to disagree. What help for ppl like me when the scientists can't agree eh?

 

[MerrySherryRider]

I too get sick of feeling like some sort of failure because I have shod my horse but I am 100% sure I have done the right thing for him and the right thing for me but putting a pair of fronts on, and shock horror, he will be having a full set next time!

I don't think you're the only person who has been made to feel this way on here. Despite the barefooters denials, the inference that those who shoe are either lazy or ignorant has been noticeable over the last year or so.

This latest chestnut -' My barefoot horses are fine in this weather because I am a superior hoofcare manager and well versed in all secrets of barefootery' is utter nonsense.


The ground is saturated with continual rain. The bacteria in the soil is thriving in these warm, moist conditions. Of course the lush grass makes a difference but the rain, warm temperatures and intermittent sunshine have been the major factor. Remember last summer when we had no rain and precious little grass growing ?

Horses adapt their feet for the environment, but when the weather is untypical and unseasonal in excess, the first place the changes will show is likely to be the foot.

No surprise that the feet are holding more moisture and are softer, making infections such as abcesses and thrush increase.

If the wet weather didn't matter, I wouldn't have to keep my horse's feet clean and dry to get rid of the thrush caused by the organisms in the soil.

 

[Oberon]

To clarify my position on this before any one decides to do it for me.....I think it's dangerous to merely assume everything is down to the weather and not look at any other issues that may be causing soreness or poor hooves.

The weather has been blamed for everything for a very long time (check out the WCF website) but I feel it's important to look holistically rather than focusing on one thing.

I worry that "it's the weather" can be used as an excuse by some professionals for poor hooves and as we can't do anything about the weather, then no one looks any further .

Speaking for myself, I would hope I have never made anyone "feel like a failure" for choosing to make their horse more comfortable. It's their horse at the end of the day and their choice what they do.

And if I reference my horses in my posts - it's to highlight that, as an Average Joe horse owner with no particular skill or special environment, my horses are managing OK. I certainly don't mean to infer anything by it. It upsets me that people may take it differently

Not meaning to flounce, but I often feel like giving up posting on here and spend my spare time more productively.

None more so than today .

 

[TwoStroke]

Cripes, now we're terrible people not only for answering people's questions and trying to help them with their horses' feet, but also for having horses that can cope with wet weather!

The bottom line - imho - is that we're not making you feel anything; we're just relating our experiences. We've said time and again that if an owner can't keep their horse comfortable barefoot then they should shoe. If you feel bad because of what we're saying, perhaps you should really consider why? It is your interpretation which causes these feelings - it has nothing whatsoever to do with us. Nor do we insult you, or twist your words like you are doing above.