Barefoot not working out?

pines of rome

pines of rome

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My horse was diagnosed with navicular/syndrome in May, decided barefoot might be the way to go, so got a EP out, who said his feet were poor score of 2.5., had to have wraps on for 12 weeks but did improve.
Wraps came off and he did well through the summer walked him out in boots and pads, by september started riding 20 mis most days, would start out well now landing heel first but would slow down coming back.
EP pleased with his progress but i was concerned that he was sore after being trimmed every 4 weeks.
Anyway got to December he is now on a score of 5.2 feet look good, but still not forward going like he was in shoes, he coped ith the frozen ground but could,nt work as too icey, wet came and its all gone to pot, not happy on his feet, was trimmed a week ago , really lame afterwards, now having to give him danilon which is helping, not working while he is so uncomfortable.
I have the vet coming Monday as i feel something else is going on as his whole body looks out, probably compensatin g lameness, he has had physio she said he had ightness down one sie of his back,but not saddle related .
My question is what do i do, i am sure the vet will say shoe him, ihave read about epona shoes, wondererd if they might be a compromise, has anybody here had any experence of these?
I just want to make my little man comfortable, any advice please?
 
I tried this, for about 6 months. The EP filed their hooves so thin I couldn't watch anymore. But we still went on and gave it a go, fine to start with but then my mare went lame and didn't even like walking on grass! She was so lame we got the vet out and he said instantly 'that's because your EP has trimmed her hooves so thin!' so we rang our normal farrier to come and put her shoes back on as she couldn't take it anymore, she was so stressed about it she almost had colic! Anyway the farrier came and was shocked to see what state her feet were in. He couldn't put shoes on her as there was no hoof wall to put the nails into! So she had boots on for about 8 weeks and the farrier finally put her shoes on, she looked so relieved! We left the riding a while, while she revered a bit, got on the roads and she was so happy, trotting away and not a care in the world about her feet!
Never going near a EP again! Much rather pay £50 for shoes than £40 for their feet to be wrecked! Xx
 
I'm sorry to hear that. I have an ep to do mine and we are walking out on all surfaces and even cantering out on hacks. I went brefoot for same reason, navicular and box foot. I resigned myself to not riding for a year just turnout 24/7. When they are recovering from a pathological issue, it's hard to think you have to wait that long and when they get uncomfortable it's so easy to just put shoes back on. However if that is what is needed then you need to rethink the approach and maybe go back to shoes. That won't solve the original issue but the call has to be made in consideration of the comfort of the horse.

We went through a bout of lami barefoot with an abscess too, he recovered in two weeks and somehow that made his foot dramatically change. We kept up turnout. Didn't bother with walking in hand and all that, with navicular, what you want is the foot to change shape in it's own time.

You should definitely go back to shoes if you think this will help her more, barefoot is just another useful tool in horsemanship and it's helped many horses, however some cases are more difficult and will take more than the help of your ep.

Have you thought of X-ray to see what changes are happening inside? Surprised ep has not suggested this.
 
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Thanks for replies, havn,t had x-rays as yet, but will if my vet thinks i should didn,t think they were that helpful and can,t afford MRI not insured. my problem with shoeing him si that he can,t take the nailing on and goes lame after it, that is why i was looking at the glue on epona shoes which also flex with the foot so it dosn,t end up contracted.
it seems a lot of people have had sucesss with these on navicular horses.
I am not sure if this is his only problem,EP is questioning possible medial collateral damage on near fore?
 
Personally I dont think any horse should be uncomfy after being trimmed and if a farrier or trimmer does it once they should learn and not do it again. A friend had a farrier's apprentice trim her horse and the horse was sore over the yard after, after that the guy doesn't take as much off.
My horse katy was diagnosed with navic and I had a uknhcp trimmer. I didn't even try shoes as she was practically living in over reach boots as she was so handy at taking normal shoes off.
It does sound like your EP is taking too much off. Sometimes less is more. If you think shoes will help then put shoes on. There are some very good farriers out there I think there are a couple associated with UKNHCP. If in doubt lisern to your horse, if he isn't comfy you need to change something. They are all individuals and what works for one may not for another.
 
I have a friend who's been using an EP, trimmed every 4 weeks and horse wasn't coping as he ought to be she's now changed over to a UKNHCP trimmer (who is also a farrier) and has noticed an instant difference. 4 week intervals can be far too often for some, personally i'm not convinced with the whole foot scoring thing - although admittedly I don't know the system intimately - there doesn't seem to be an allowance for feet that need to be a less than perfect shape for the horse to be comfortable.
I'd be getting a second opinion from another trimmer if I was in your position. Hope it works out. x
 
My horse is one of the barefoot success stories -he had damage to ddft, dsil and collateral ligamnets.
He would not tolerate any sort of radical trimming in shoes and out. I've had farriers make shim hopping lame by trying to force his foot where it wasn't readu to be. He gets minimal trim from my farrier now, just tidies the edges and rolls the toes. He gets checked at 6 weeks because that when he shoes my friends horse but he's been left as long as 11 weeks.
I might be looking for another trimmer personally,if an approach isn't working and the horse is lamer after a trim than before then I would expect them to try something else..
 
Did I read this right, the horse is lame as a result of the trimming? and you are paying this person every four weeks to lame this animal? :eek:
Find a good farrier.
 
I don't think a horse should be more sore or sore if previously comfortable after a trim myself but I'm not a professional. I think you are right to have a good rethink if your horse isn't right atrer a trim. Have you thought of boots and pads for helping during work? Also, do discuss your concerns with your EP.
 
OP have you spoken to the EP about the lameness? I have a DAEP & my god I would be livid if any of my horses where sore after trimming. I would personally be contacting the trimmer & then probably looking for someone else be that farrier or another Trimmer.

Fwiw I've never had my horses hooves scored.
 
Yes i do tell him that he looks sore,he tells me aslong as it only lasts a couple of days not to worry and not to walk him until he looks comfy.
HE could be worse at the moment because he tears around in the paddock, so might have some bruising as his soles arn,t as tough on the wet ground, i have used hardener on them and he comes in at night.
 
We had a similar problem when we used an EP- our mare had a 'score' of 8.5 but was still lame after each trim! We tried a UKNHCP recommended trimmer and now have no problems whatsoever, on any ground and doing loads of roadwork. EP's can get very tied up sometimes in creating the perfect foot, without taking into consideration the individual horses needs and conformation.
Give another trimmer/farrier a try before you leap back into shoes though!
 
As several above have said, I'd be very concerned about a horse that was worse after a trim than it was before - the trim is obviously causing a problem! I think I would look for a UKNHCP trimmer, and do as much reading as you can yourself about the subject, so you know what you are looking for from a trimmer. You could think about using boot and pads for hacking - look at Cavallo's and at the EasyCare website for lots of info on these.
 
When i ride i do use cavellos and pads on his fronts, havn,t put boots on the backs, but we are only doing 20 mins walking and he is close behind so ithink he may end up catching his feet, forgot to mention he is an ex flat race horse, maybe he is just one of those not cut out for barefoot?
 
pines of rome said:
When i ride i do use cavellos and pads on his fronts, havn,t put boots on the backs, but we are only doing 20 mins walking and he is close behind so ithink he may end up catching his feet, forgot to mention he is an ex flat race horse, maybe he is just one of those not cut out for barefoot?
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Either that, or your EP's not cut out for trimming!
What on earth are you doing, carrying on LETTING someone make your horse uncomfortable? Whatever does your vet think about a horse which is being made lame in this way?
For goodness sake get rid of the 'EP' and get someone who knows what they are doing to do the horse's feet.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
Either that, or your EP's not cut out for trimming!
What on earth are you doing, carrying on LETTING someone make your horse uncomfortable? Whatever does your vet think about a horse which is being made lame in this way?
For goodness sake get rid of the 'EP' and get someone who knows what they are doing to do the horse's feet.
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excuse me but that is seriously rude! you put your faith in professionals doing there job properly and that they know what they are doing, it has worked fine for several months so its not like she is letting the EP ruin her horse. barefoot isn't for everyone but there are ways of saying it not like that!!!
 
Mm, 4 weeks sounds much too often and certainly shouldn't be sore after a trim. Change your trimmer.

Don't try Epona shoes - enough said. Better would be get some hoof boots as these allow the horse to work in comfort.

Don't forget the effect of grass growing.
 
Firstly, when he was shod he did have side clips on his shoes. also when he was shod was lame afterwards and farrier would just shrug his shoulders and say he was a bit unlevel. my EP is a good one an instructor and has had a lot of sucess with written off horses. I am going to see what my vet says, but i do find vets arn,t interested when you go barefoot.
 
ladyrascase, would you allow an unregulated, unregistered 'trainer' batter your horse over jumps? Would you allow a self professed saddle fitter to instruct you to keep using a saddle that caused white marks/sores on your horses back? Ifnot, what is the difference in this case. This 'trimmer' has lamed this horse, do you remember the Strasser woman? Her clients also abdicated responsibilty for their horses. As the horses keeper it is YOUR responsibility to ensure that the people you pay to provide a service do so correctly, and not damage your horse!
 
Well, LadyR, it doesn't sound fine to me. IMO it is part of the horse-owner's responsibility to have a modicum of knowledge which allows them to make sensible decisions about the 'professionals' who work with the horse.
FYI, I have in the past 'sacked' vets/farriers/hay suppliers etc who I have felt were not doing the best for my horse AND, while I am certainly not a member of the 'barefoot at any cost brigade', I do have both shod and unshod horses - and those who have front-only shoes. I employ a well-qualified farrier to deal with all their feet - none of them has ever been lame after he has visited!
 
firstly i use a farrier and my horse is fully shod all round. so i am neither pro or anti barefoot. and yes i do remember strasser. yes we are responsible for our horses but you don't have to be nasty in the way you say it. i have pm'd the OP as i feel this post is going to turn into a witch hunt. i don't use a registered back man but get the same results, my dentist is american qualified but i get the same results (confirmed by the vet) just because something isn't the norm, it doesn't mean it is wrong. i am not saying what the OP has done is wrong or right, there is better ways to say things.
 
LaryR, I just do not find it acceptable that the OP is continuing to allow this person to lame their horse! Once and you kick yourself for allowing it, twice and you are being an irresponsible owner. It isn't the lack of registration (although it is better to have proof of ability IMO) it is the continued incompetence, which I have the problem with. If the OP cannot see that and is blinded by the 'barefoot' at any cost mind set, then it mirrors the Strasser story. I too have shod and unshod horses and have had that mix for a good many years, long before anyone thought of 'barefoot'. I have however always accepted that my animals welfare is my responsibility.
 
Wish i had never started this, got way out of hand, the way you are describing my horse as if he is crippled, when i am talking a bit footsore,i am in no way fanatical about barefoot and only took that option be cause it was painful for my horse to be shod.
My previous horse who was shod would often be footy after shoeing, i think t.bs can be sensitive.
I would like an opinion on glue on shoes?
 
although i shouldn't say this i will, i can honestly say she isn't barefoot at all cost the amount of money she comes into my work and spends to make sure her horse is ok is astronomical. to say that she is stupid and cruel is uncalled for, we all make mistakes and the horse going lame (the first time) after being trimmed cold have been a coincidence, she is doing the right thing by her horse and was asking other peoples experiences of barefoot as this is a new experience for her. it is difficult to get your head around how something that has been going so well for so long can suddenly not be working. i have no worries for the horses welfare and she will do what is right for her animal, which you can only speculate over, having never seen him or watched him being trimmed etc.

ETA i for one let my lad become worse and worse under the supervision of qualified vets and farriers because i trusted what they said as professionals, it took me a year to realise he was getting worse not better, but now 3 years later he is sound as anything. we can't all be perfect, we do what we feel is right four our animal in the given situation
 
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I think trimming the feet every 4 weeks may be too aggressive for your horse. I would be inclined to leave the feet untouched for at the very least, 6 weeks, possibly 8 weeks, and see if that makes any difference.

I've never used glue on shoes but I've known a few people who claim it was the best thing they did for their horses. It's got to be worth a try if the longer trims don't work.
 
pines of rome said:
Wish i had never started this, got way out of hand, the way you are describing my horse as if he is crippled, when i am talking a bit footsore,i am in no way fanatical about barefoot and only took that option be cause it was painful for my horse to be shod.
My previous horse who was shod would often be footy after shoeing, i think t.bs can be sensitive.
I would like an opinion on glue on shoes?
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The Renegades in my opinion is the best glue on shoe. Google them. Not sure about uk stockists.

Have you posted your problems on the EP forum? They are very helpful and you'll find the lameness specialists will be more than happy to help you find a solution and will say if you need shoes. You could even try the UKNHCP forum too.

It sounds a case for them as you won't find it very helpful on here.
 
YorksG said:
LaryR, I just do not find it acceptable that the OP is continuing to allow this person to lame their horse!
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Erm, I read in one of her posts that he was sore after being shod and the Farrier just shrugged his shoulders! :confused: So I have a feeling there may be long standing issues those of us not trained or knowing the horse may be aware of. I agree it is the owners responsibility in the end but I think the harshness is totally unjustified.

Op, have a good heart to heart with your trimmer and be clear about your concerns. Perhaps easing off a bit on the trim and slowing change right down might be the way to go? :)
 
pines of rome said:
Yes i do tell him that he looks sore,he tells me aslong as it only lasts a couple of days not to worry and not to walk him until he looks comfy.
HE could be worse at the moment because he tears around in the paddock, so might have some bruising as his soles arn,t as tough on the wet ground, i have used hardener on them and he comes in at night.
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Jeepers creepers. Now THAT's the kind of trimmer who brings barefoot into disrepute :(

I don't believe any barefoot horse should walk away from a trim lamer than it went into it more than once (sometimes, the horse does not like what we could call a "good" trim and he knows best. So once may, not "is" may, be OK but not twice.)

I think that the scoring system is a nonsense. A friend of mine had a horse out hunting every week who an EP scored as having heels too weak to do much work. I had a horse who, following the book I was reading, would have scored about 2.5 but he was in full work and sound. The trouble with it is that the horses themselves just don't recognise it!


OP you badly need either a different trimmer or a good farrier, the one you have has let you down I'm afraid. I hope you get sorted soon.
 
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