Barefoot people - thoughts & opinions please?

Scarlett

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Morning all...

I have a TB who had his shoes removed in January as he was having some time off, he's never had shoes put back on and thus is responsible for converting me to barefoot :) He's super sound, jumps, hacks, schools, goes on all surfaces and in all going without issues. Honestly he's some kind of barefoot TB poster boy :)

However.... this is where I need some help/opnions/experiences. When his shoes were removed his legs, especially his fronts, did weird things. The veins got very prominant and his legs looked swollen in different places on different days, some days he looked like he had 2 bowed tendons, some days it was on the inside of the cannon, some the outside, some one leg, some all 3. It was horrifying and astonishing at the same time. My vet assured me that it was the circulation returning to his feet after the shoes had been removed - bit of an eye opener to how shoes restrict the feet I must say and the catalyst to me becoming pro-barefoot - and that it would pass. He was never lame at any point, occasionally a bit pottery coming out the stable which my vet put down again to the blood flow restoring and would always walk it off and be striding out on his walks out in hand. Eventually it stopped, his feet started growing, he had a month in a field (as had always been the plan as I got him straight from racing) and came back with hard, cold legs and has been in work since (April incase it matters).

Last night however he came in from the field with a swollen leg. My initial panic was that he'd pulled something, but now I'm not sure. One foreleg was hot and swollen down the inside of the cannon, and it branched out over the fetlock and down the pastern and the hoof was hot... I cold hosed and put him in. This am both legs are like that, and his veins are all prominant again. It's the same as it looked in January/Feb when his shoes came off, but without him having shoes to have come off!

His diet hasnt changed and is b/f friendly. He does get Saracen Re-leve mix in a base of Speedibeet and Alfa A oil with his linseed and vits and minerals but he's been getting that for a while and previously in bigger quantities. He has haylage as I struggle to get hay. Our grazing is wet, muddy and sparse at the best of times, there has, however, been a grass flush and the little grass there is in the field is bright green.

So, my question is has anyone had a similar experience? Could a flush of grass, (combined with current diet/haylage?) cause such a reaction?

I've tried calling my vet but the one who is 'b/f friendly' is off today and the the other won't answer my question, I think he is a little bemused by the idea... :) They are going to try and get hold of my vet and get him to give me a call.

Some feet pics from last week when I took a few pics to show a friend that his growth line from his shoes coming off has got to the ground 9 months to the week of him having them pulled. Not the greatest pics, sadly, but you get the idea. His feet self trim.

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All thoughts - except ones involving putting shoes back on - appreciated... :)
 
He looks like he needs a farrier out imho. Sorry, but even "self trimming feet" need the care of a farrier. The feet look long and possibly flared ?
 
Have already contacted my trimmer about coming to see my other boy so she'll look at them both for me - they were both last looked at 5 weeks ago although Indy didnt require a trim at the time, I expect she will do him this time round.
 
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That's perfect then , my trimmer only very gradually trims flares as long as the trimmers happy and the horse is happy and you are happy that's a result.
 
We await Oberon, I tend to aggree with feet trimming, can you manage to rasp round the edges youself, and/or do 20 mins on smooth tarmac to self trim.
Re the gait, pottery which wears off after a few minutes is characteristic of some racehorses, probably due to wear and rear.
Re the swelling, I would remove any molasses and any alfalfa from the diet, there is little you can do if it is due to a grass allergy. Maybe move to another field.
 
I can't help on this one, it will be interesting to hear what your vet says. However, looking at those photos I don't think he is ready to self-trim yet. As above, who is helping you to look after his hooves? I found that a big turning point for me was not just having the right person doing the trim, but also learning myself how to do a tiny bit of work every now and then to keep the hooves tidy, and to put just a bit of a bevel on when needed.
I'm sure you'll get some diet advice too, but I think you might be advised to take out the Apha oil.
 
I'll get pics tonight of his feet as they are today - when I took these he'd had a long weekend off and 2 easy weeks before that. His feet have a lot less flare and are shorter now after a week of hacking out and working in the sand school.

Could the flare be related to the swelling? Anyone?
 
The flaring could be diet related and so can leg swelling .
Alfalfa is certainly not good for some horses it did cause leg swelling in one of our hunters a few years ago he was shod so I don't know what his feet would have got up to BF.
 
It also looks like theirs some lateral medio imbalance but it's hard to tell from the pics .
I would love to see pictures after the trim.
 
Thanks for replies so far - I can appreciate the advice to take Alfa A Oil out, and I've taken the Re-leve out as it does have a tiny bit of molasses in it, however he has been on this diet for month and months, the only thing I've recently added is Speedibeet. I've had massive issues getting him to eat b/f feed and a lot of what is considered good I've tried and he just won't touch, he's also a big TB in a decent amount of work so I need to feed him for condition and energy too. I've had no problems with him having Alfalfa before now.

My trimmer is superb, she left him last trim as his feet were clearly starting to do their own thing, but obv he is still under her watchful eye and will be trimmed next time if required. He's never had a day lame or footy since he came into work in April, and even with his swollen leg last night wasn't footy.
 
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Alfa A has mollasses in .

Sorry, I meant Alfa A Oil, previous to that he was on Alfa A molasses free...

I've had ulcery TB's for years, I am super careful about feed. I'd rather not feed too much alfalfa in general but this horse is so difficult to get feed into that I've had to find out what h will eat and go from there. He absolutely will not eat beet without chaff through it, and its either alfalfa or readigrass or nothing.
 
Swollen veins for 2 of mine and several clients happen whenever too much sugar/lush grass or alfalfa. Happens before footiness strikes.
 
Not all are affected by alfalfa but as it is frequently problematic I tend to take out just to be sure. Palatability of low sugar diet can be a challenge but perservance is worth it. Mine likes hers cake crumb in texture and warm (don't ask!) Cold and too wet will be tipped over and pooed on.
 
Not all are affected by alfalfa but as it is frequently problematic I tend to take out just to be sure. Palatability of low sugar diet can be a challenge but perservance is worth it. Mine likes hers cake crumb in texture and warm (don't ask!) Cold and too wet will be tipped over and pooed on.

Mine won't eat 'cake crumb', it needs to be slightly wetter than that but not wet, sloppy is out too, as is too dry. Its a proper mission.

Believe me I've tried just about everything. It's taken 9 months to get him to eat beet but he's gradually having more and more of it which is great as I can hopefully lessen the need for chaff with it. My problem is he loves alfalfa, and will eat it with pretty much anything, I tried timothy chop for a few months but would just find it in a neat pile on his stable floor with all the tasty bits eaten. He was apparently like this in training too.

I went away last weekend and left his feed making to my horsey OH, I showed him exactly how I make them, he followed it to the letter and horse didnt finish a single feed OH made. Prob is horse is a big TB, I need him to eat or he looses weight. He's been getting extra feeds and thus more chaff than usual, I guess this is the problem.

Thank you everyone :)
 
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I'm afraid I have no idea about the swelling but I am quite concerned about how many people seem to feel that any flaring should be taken off by a trimmer. I agree that your horse's hooves look a little long at the moment but you've said that they're shorter now from some work on roads and in the school so I think you've probably addressed that successfully.

As far as flaring goes please take a look at the Rockley Farm blog and see the pictures of Dexter on there. He has quite significant flaring, without which he is no longer sound. I agree that everyone's instinct is to remove something that looks less than balanced and perfect, but in my experience a horse will only grow a flare if he needs one. I've posted a link below to one of the blog posts talking about deviations in hooves and the reasons to leave them alone but there are lots more on the blog if you look for them.

http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02/more-on-puzzling-hoof.html

My horse has quite a significant medial flare on his fronts but is far more sound than he has been in a long time. He has been self trimming since he went to Rockley in February and is going from strength to strength on a variety of surfaces, including horribly stony tracks! :eek: :D
 
I'm afraid I have no idea about the swelling but I am quite concerned about how many people seem to feel that any flaring should be taken off by a trimmer. I agree that your horse's hooves look a little long at the moment but you've said that they're shorter now from some work on roads and in the school so I think you've probably addressed that successfully.

As far as flaring goes please take a look at the Rockley Farm blog and see the pictures of Dexter on there. He has quite significant flaring, without which he is no longer sound. I agree that everyone's instinct is to remove something that looks less than balanced and perfect, but in my experience a horse will only grow a flare if he needs one. I've posted a link below to one of the blog posts talking about deviations in hooves and the reasons to leave them alone but there are lots more on the blog if you look for them.

http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02/more-on-puzzling-hoof.html

My horse has quite a significant medial flare on his fronts but is far more sound than he has been in a long time. He has been self trimming since he went to Rockley in February and is going from strength to strength on a variety of surfaces, including horribly stony tracks! :eek: :D

I did think of the Rockley post about Dexter when folk mentioned flare :)

My trimmer very much believes we should be led by the hoof when it comes to trimming. Occasionally he gets a bit of flare, then it goes away after a few days in our school or a session in the horse walker which has a concrete surface. I dont expect him to have perfect feet, but I do expect him to have feet that can cope with his workload. Which they do. :) Job done.

I should have taken pics of his feet this am, these, in hindsight, don't give a true picture of how his feet look right now. I might take some at the weekend.
 
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I would just say that he is indeed a poster boy for TB feet :D

There's an awful lot to like there :) The length is not a huge issue at all, and nice big frogs (maybe a wee scrub with some cider vinegar to get the black stuff off, but no contraction, so good work there too ;)).

People do get used to seeing very "neat" feet - a bit less neat isn't a problem, provided you can get the horse out and about and trimming his own.

It is lovely to see a TB with nice, normal looking feet :) We get so used to seeing them all contracted, or flared like dinner plates, it's a refreshing change to see TB feet doing what they should be doing!
 
I would just say that he is indeed a poster boy for TB feet :D

There's an awful lot to like there :) The length is not a huge issue at all, and nice big frogs (maybe a wee scrub with some cider vinegar to get the black stuff off, but no contraction, so good work there too ;)).

People do get used to seeing very "neat" feet - a bit less neat isn't a problem, provided you can get the horse out and about and trimming his own.

It is lovely to see a TB with nice, normal looking feet :) We get so used to seeing them all contracted, or flared like dinner plates, it's a refreshing change to see TB feet doing what they should be doing!

Thank you - I really appreciate those comments :)
 
Main thing to remember is that he is sound :)

Hooves look a little long and the quarters look a bit stressed.

White line looks a bit thick (although could be the light :o)

Soles look a little flat.

The hinds look a little bull nosed to me.

The last three are all dietary indicators when added together. It could be that current diet + grass + autumn (which is sometimes as challenging as spring for some horses.....hormones etc) is one too many burdens for the hooves right now.
I know I saw huge benefits when I changed my horses from a 'good' diet to an 'excellent' diet.

The swelling - well we need a vet to be sure......but it sounds like your horse is quirky that way. If he needs to labour a point that he's not happy with something....his legs fill?

As well as tinkering with the diet, you could also try some herbs.
http://www.equinatural.co.uk/epages/BT3755.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/BT3755/Categories/Circulation
http://www.equinatural.co.uk/epages...hops/BT3755/Products/016/SubProducts/016-0001

If you are worried about gut health but don't want all out ulcer treatment...this stuff has been recommended
http://www.ronfieldsnutrition.co.uk/horses_UL30REX.htm

As an aside - there's no chance of Cushings, is there?
 
Main thing to remember is that he is sound :)

Hooves look a little long and the quarters look a bit stressed.

White line looks a bit thick (although could be the light :o)

Soles look a little flat.

The hinds look a little bull nosed to me.

The last three are all dietary indicators when added together. It could be that current diet + grass + autumn (which is sometimes as challenging as spring for some horses.....hormones etc) is one too many burdens for the hooves right now.
I know I saw huge benefits when I changed my horses from a 'good' diet to an 'excellent' diet.

The swelling - well we need a vet to be sure......but it sounds like your horse is quirky that way. If he needs to labour a point that he's not happy with something....his legs fill?

As well as tinkering with the diet, you could also try some herbs.
http://www.equinatural.co.uk/epages/BT3755.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/BT3755/Categories/Circulation
http://www.equinatural.co.uk/epages...hops/BT3755/Products/016/SubProducts/016-0001

If you are worried about gut health but don't want all out ulcer treatment...this stuff has been recommended
http://www.ronfieldsnutrition.co.uk/horses_UL30REX.htm

As an aside - there's no chance of Cushings, is there?

Thank you :)

I have some of those herbs from last time so I have started him on them again.

I totally get what you're saying about swapping him to an excellent diet, but as already said I do struggle with what he will and won't eat, and how much. He's a big lad, not a great do-er and in full work. I am totally open to all suggestions though!?! He will now eat unmollassed beet, but not in big quantities. FF is a no go - and tbh I dont think it would be enough calories for him - and I need to add energy. He gets linseed and rice bran in fairly big quantities at the moment already.

Cushings I'm not sure about but he has been mentioned for ulcers/epsm as he was very backwards. Ulcer symptoms got better after a course of omazeprole and since going on the Re-leve, linseed, omega rice and Alfa A oil he has been much more forward and has gained and held weight well.

It's just such a balancing act to get weight on, give him energy and keep his toes happy - it looked like we had it spot on for a while there!
 
Thank you :)

I have some of those herbs from last time so I have started him on them again.

I totally get what you're saying about swapping him to an excellent diet, but as already said I do struggle with what he will and won't eat, and how much. He's a big lad, not a great do-er and in full work. I am totally open to all suggestions though!?! He will now eat unmollassed beet, but not in big quantities. FF is a no go - and tbh I dont think it would be enough calories for him - and I need to add energy. He gets linseed and rice bran in fairly big quantities at the moment already.

Cushings I'm not sure about but he has been mentioned for ulcers/epsm as he was very backwards. Ulcer symptoms got better after a course of omazeprole and since going on the Re-leve, linseed, omega rice and Alfa A oil he has been much more forward and has gained and held weight well.

It's just such a balancing act to get weight on, give him energy and keep his toes happy - it looked like we had it spot on for a while there!

Hmm, he's a tricky one :D.

If he were mine.....

First I'd do a 'gut love' treatment for a month to settle any issues that may be going on there (if the gut isn't 100% the nutrients won't be absorbed as well and that will affect the feet)
http://www.protexin.com/products/gut-balancer/5 + http://www.ronfieldsnutrition.co.uk/horses_UL30REX.htm

In re of the diet, I'd try unmolassed beet, linseed, alfa a oil and some performance balancer
http://shop.forageplus.com/epages/es137718.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/es137718/Products/FPP

If I still had problems after a month, I would try and substitute the alfa a with unmolassed hay chaff.

There is also Coolstance copra to consider if he is happy with that.

And oats to consider too......

I'd also ddd some fenugreek seeds to the feeds to stimulate appetite and add flavour
http://www.cotsherb.co.uk/culinary-herbs-and-spices/whole-seeds/fenugreek-seeds/prod_692.html

He may be fine on the original diet at some point - just not at the moment :o.
 
Thanks everyone.

I went via the feed shop on the way home last night and they had a molasses free chopped straw chaff in stock so grabbed that, fed him mostly that last night with a handful of alfa a oil and his beet, linseed and vits. He's picking at it and eating it grudgingly but he is eating it eventually so that'll do for now...! The swelling has gone from one massive leg to a little in all 4, he walked out this am and is totally sound, plus the swelling had gone completely by the end of the walk. Will keep an eye on him and possibly work him later. :)
 
The hinds look a little bull nosed to me.

This.

And I have only ever seen them in horses with a dietary challenge, in my experience inability to deal with carbohydrate volume. What has happened this week is that compared to the last couple of weeks the temperature has shot up and we have also seen the sun. In late autumn that produces a flush of grass sugars, which will cause the leg swelling in some horses.

My vets tell me that October is the peak of laminitis cases, not spring as everyone thinks.

Your boy may just have had a bit too much sugar.

Hope that helps.
 
^^^

very interesting - when I was out riding this morning, the dew on the grass just made it "look" dangerous - Shy went out with his muzzle (which didn't impress some), but the sugars are drawn up into the grass.
 
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