Barefooted I asked so dont shoot me down!

[indie999]

old boy no shoes on barefooted now but retired/not riden.All is fine particularly now nail holes gone.
Asked my farrier re barefoot. Yes you can but depends what you do and some horses have good feet and some bad, he said its the soles that if they are week will cause the pain(whatever you feed it).

If I rode just twice a week (bit of short road tarmac/flinty/ mud) I would probably get away with it. Anymore than that I would probably run into trouble. Going over stones is the problem he gave me an example of watching a long distance ride where 3/4 horses were barefooted and they came to a stretch of shingle the riders really kicked the horses across the stones and said obvious they were in discomfort(when I was looking for a new horse the barefooted didnt like shingle drives..I was told this by the owners). He said front shoes probably would have helped these riders and they may have got away with it. He said its the weight of the rider on the horse that is the problem on the barefooted(not like in the wild). Also there use to be an old law about working horses etc and shoeing ie more for farm horses but I cant find it?? anyone?? 1950s??
Plus we wear shoes. I am not against just that I trust my farrier 110%. Some horses no matter how much special food you give them are still going to have bad feet, went on more to do with the soles of the feet being thinner?? But the old law was designed for horses in work to improve welfare and anyone that has been ie to India will see the state of the taxi horses and most of the roads are unmade but I assume they dont have hoofcare at all???

 

[be positive]

Have a look at this site, the videos at the bottom are interesting. www.rockfoot.com/why.html

 

[floradora09]

Hi, a few interesting points there.

I also trust my farrier, and having a bad experience with another one will endeavour to let nobody but mine look after my boy's feet.

I'd partially agree with what you farrier says with regards to the soles, yes if the soles are thin and hooves weak then you're going to have an uncomfortable horse- BUT on recommendation of my farrier, winston is barefoot at the moment and I have found that in the last 6 weeks his soles have thickened and toughened up significantly.

Yes, we wear shoes- but not fixed shoes for 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. Just like we take our shoes off to give our feet a break, it is logical to think that horses need this too- especially with the demands we put on their feet.

I'm on the fence really with the shod vs. barefoot debate, and I think there is not one clear answer. Yes in an ideal world none of our horses would need shoes, and still be able to perform- but in reality this isn't always possible. You many not be able to ever get the diet right to grow rock-crunching hooves, or be able to provide the conditions and time needed to help strengthen the feet. Even then the horse may still struggle to have hooves which can fully allow the horse to work at the level it is required to. However, time without shoes benefits all shod horses and I don't really agree with the idea of shoeing 'just because' when it may be unnecessary.

Edit- Forgot to add, even though you trust your farrier, and that's fine- there's no harm in educating yourself a bit so you can gain a better understanding to support your horse's feet and also so you're able to question and understand yourself what he says, not just take it as a given!

 

[Clava]

I think your farrier is not that well educated with barefoot horses and what they can do.

 

[littlescallywag]

^^^
I agree with clava
Have a look on the rockley site listed above. Its an eye opener

 

[Tinypony]

I agree with Clava.
You might find it interesting to do a search on barefoot, because the points you raise have been answered in recent detailed threads.
"Thin soles" - yep, I got a horse with thin soles. You should see them now after proper trimming, diet and maintenance. Rock crunchers!

p.s. Trust your farrier if you want your horse shod. If you want your horse without shoes then you may need to look elsewhere. From what you've said you can't trust what he says about barefoot horses.

 

[cptrayes]

Asked my farrier re barefoot. Yes you can but depends what you do and some horses have good feet and some bad, he said its the soles that if they are week will cause the pain(whatever you feed it).

Your farrier does not know enough to be advising you.

It is farriers like him who almost caused the horse I took on last year to be put to sleep.

When he arrived his feet were so weak I could bend them with my fingers. Once I had his diet sorted out they improved day by day. After less than a year he was doing work on all sorts of surfaces without boots and has not looked back. He is not a one-off, many horses cannot grow strong soles while there is too much sugar in their food, and that includes grass.

 

[Oberon]

If people want to shoe their horses and it's best for them and the horse - then that's fine. I am not opposed to that. What I AM opposed to is misinformation.

I am very frustrated by statements like, "Some horses have bad feet" "Some horses have thin soles" "Some horses are predisposed to navicular" from professionals.

The statement is made, the owner believes it and then it's OK to accept the horse's current hoof pathology.

But I support the next step. When the owner says, "Why."

You would be amazed what appropriate diet and a sympathetic trim will do for a horse's feet.

The horse is constantly trying to grow a GOOD foot - but they are often thwarted by us in small ways that add up.

While there is circulation - there is always hope of a good foot.

On the other hand, if someone takes their horse BF and has no intention of changing the diet and conditioning the hooves to keep the horse comfortable and won't use boots - then they should put shoes back on. No horse should be uncomfortable for the sake on an ideal.

 

[amandap]

What I AM opposed to is misinformation.

I am very frustrated by statements like, "Some horses have bad feet" "Some horses have thin soles" "Some horses are predisposed to navicular" from professionals.

The statement is made, the owner believes it and then it's OK to accept the horse's current hoof pathology.

But I support the next step. When the owner says, "Why."

You would be amazed what appropriate diet and a sympathetic trim will do for a horse's feet.

The horse is constantly trying to grow a GOOD foot - but they are often thwarted by us in small ways that add up.

While there is circulation - there is always hope of a good foot.

On the other hand, if someone takes their horse BF and has no intention of changing the diet and conditioning the hooves to keep the horse comfortable and won't use boots - then they should put shoes back on. No horse should be uncomfortable for the sake on an ideal.

I so agree here. I blame the system not moving forward but continuing to teach and train outdated thinking and methods.

 

[zandp]

I had a mare with very thin soles, who had always shod, lots of problems with her feet, which were flat and wide, shoes falling off, often unsound if not trimmed as she needed to be - normally when farriers didn't listen to me explaining what her problem was and/or refusing to look at the xrays which clearly showed her foot issues.

I removed her shoes last August, when she was 16. I originally did it after being let down by 3 farriers in a row to save her feet by removing the shoes instead of them being pulled off in the field. Then I couldn't get a farrier appointment for another 6 weeks so thought I'd keep them off for the summer, emailed a trimmer who replied immediately and came the next week.

I now have a sound, rock crunching mare with thick soles, she has lovely concavity, healthier frogs, no thrush which had been a recurrent problem when shod and she moves better too.

 

[SusieT]

be positive-that site claims in one of its photos that the yellow line is the angel of p3-the yellow line is straight. P3 is most definitely not straight! That would concern me in regards to the rest of the site being reliable.

 

[Oberon]

I thought it was explaining that the growth from the coronet tries to grow parallel to P3 initially?

The yellow line is highlighting the new growth.

 

[FairyLights]

the weather has an influence.
this summer its been very dry with us,horses feet rock hard,real stone crunchers. Come the wet weather the hooves get softer,think you own nails after being in water for a time.
Barefoot is about common sense,some horses do well ,have natural good hooves, some not quite as well ,depends on the horse,the weather and how and where its being ridden and for how long. Forget the confusing "expert" info,think logically. Mustangs etc dont live in soggy Britain,they dont trot for miles on tarmac. Its all common sense and some people are making a fortune out if blinding people with "science".
I like my horses to be barefoot BTW , I think it is the best ,but if I do a lot of work on roads or stoney lanes some of them need shoes.

 

[SusieT]

'Yellow line: showing the position of P3'

 

[SusieT]

'Barefoot is about common sense,some horses do well ,have natural good hooves, some not quite as well ,depends on the horse,the weather and how and where its being ridden and for how long'
Agreed.

 

[classicalfan]

He is not a one-off, many horses cannot grow strong soles while there is too much sugar in their food, and that includes grass.

Hi Santa Paws. Would be grateful if you could point me in the right direction for where you found your info regarding this. Am currently researching similar area - ie most horses are fed incorrectly. Ta

 

[cptrayes]

Ask people on UKNHCP.myfastforum.com to give you their anecdotal cases too. Then check out the diseases Insulin Resistance, Equine Polysaccharride Storage Myopathy, and Equine Metabolic Syndrome and you will find all the evidence that you need for insulin regulation issues causing thin feet and for sugar being very bad news for horses with insulin regulation issues.

All the barefoot sites will also contain info about grass sugars and point you to various places, including safergrass.org

Put a post of your own up, there are several nutrition aware people who use this site who can give you more information.

Your research is very much needed, and the answer is YES.

 

[unbalanced]

If you are feeding a horse for laminitis prevention e.g. all food is approved by laminitis society - does it follow that this diet is suitable for helping the feet to grow well? I keep reading that nutrition is an important factor but as one of the owners whose horse has been written off by the farrier - will never go barefoot - thin soles - I am not sure how to make her soles thicker. I don't feed her sugar (I don't think). Is that it?

 

[Brownmare]

Unbalanced - my tb mare had soles so thin I could flex them with thumb pressure and she was footy over stones even in shoes! Her shoes came off when she strained a suspensory, I overhauled her diet by getting haylage analysed by Forageplus and a diet plan done by them. She is now back in work and totally rock crunching in fact she has one of the toughest sets of hooves on the yard.

 

[Waltzing Matilda]

classicalfan

Quote de Santa Paws He is not a one-off, many horses cannot grow strong soles while there is too much sugar in their food, and that includes grass.

Hi Santa Paws. Would be grateful if you could point me in the right direction for where you found your info regarding this. Am currently researching similar area - ie most horses are fed incorrectly. Ta

Look up Richard villas. He studies low grade laminitis
http://www.bodrwyn.org/
Xx

 

[dressagelove]

My farrier has EXACTLY the same attitude as the OP's. Down to he has said the exact same thing to me. However, mine hadn't heard about the diet component of it, which seems odd to me, a qualified farrier not knowing about horses diet and feet???

However, after fantastic advice on here, I have explained to him where Im coming from, and the good thing about my farrier is he is really good, and a very good friend, and is willing to give it a go for me. My point was, well even if it all goes tits up, we can still just stick the shoes back on can't we? Which appeased him!
So I'm halfway through my last shoe cycle while my new diet kicks in! Watch this space for pics in the new year!!! Verrrrrryyy EXCITING!!!!

 

[Nocturnal]

If you are feeding a horse for laminitis prevention e.g. all food is approved by laminitis society - does it follow that this diet is suitable for helping the feet to grow well? I keep reading that nutrition is an important factor but as one of the owners whose horse has been written off by the farrier - will never go barefoot - thin soles - I am not sure how to make her soles thicker. I don't feed her sugar (I don't think). Is that it?

It's not just a case of removing sugar and starch from the diet - the horse also needs to be getting the correct amounts of minerals in its diet, in the correct ratios. I believe this is why people have their forage analysed; it's pretty much impossible to know exactly what you need to feed without knowing what's in your forage.

Also, I've heard some people have problems with some feeds that are approved by the laminitis trust - I wouldn't be guided just by what logos are on the feed bag; really look at the ingredients before feeding .

The 'thin soles' argument always baffles me, though. Of course a horse will have thin soles if it's wearing shoes - just like humans will. But if a human starts walking without shoes they will build up a callous - a tough, thick sole. It is the same with horses.

 

[cptrayes]

If you are feeding a horse for laminitis prevention e.g. all food is approved by laminitis society - does it follow that this diet is suitable for helping the feet to grow well? I keep reading that nutrition is an important factor but as one of the owners whose horse has been written off by the farrier - will never go barefoot - thin soles - I am not sure how to make her soles thicker. I don't feed her sugar (I don't think). Is that it?

The Laminitis Trust will approve any food of up to 10% sugar, provided they are paid so you can put their logo on your bag.

This sugar rate is not safe for a fair number of horses, and many barefooters will feel stones if they are on feeds with this much sugar in it.

 

[classicalfan]

Ask people on UKNHCP.myfastforum.com to give you their anecdotal cases too. Then check out the diseases Insulin Resistance, Equine Polysaccharride Storage Myopathy, and Equine Metabolic Syndrome and you will find all the evidence that you need for insulin regulation issues causing thin feet and for sugar being very bad news for horses with insulin regulation issues.

All the barefoot sites will also contain info about grass sugars and point you to various places, including safergrass.org

Put a post of your own up, there are several nutrition aware people who use this site who can give you more information.

Your research is very much needed, and the answer is YES.

Thanks Santa Paws. Am aware of EMS, EPSM, etc, we currently have a couple of horses here under treatment. Was actually looking for more info re sub-clinical changes in 'healthy' horses, not those who already have a sensitivity. Hence your comment prompted my question. Thought you may have found some research papers I had missed.

 

[cptrayes]

Thanks Santa Paws. Am aware of EMS, EPSM, etc, we currently have a couple of horses here under treatment. Was actually looking for more info re sub-clinical changes in 'healthy' horses, not those who already have a sensitivity. Hence your comment prompted my question. Thought you may have found some research papers I had missed.

No, I just own two who can walk over rocks provided that they don't eat spring and summer grass after 11am or before 7pm and I know of hundreds of others just like them.

If you want numbers, ask on here and on UKNHCP, but it's all anecdotal I'm afraid.

I suspect if you were to run a proper survey that the proportion of working barefoot horses who have to wear boots or stay off stones in summer unless their sugar intake is carefully restricted is very, very high.

By the way, the effect in barefoot horses can be produced in 24-48 hours, so if you want to carry out a study you could do it in a very short space of time. I would lend you my two if you were close enough and I'm sure others would love to participate. You could feed them their proper diet and then video them on a patch of stones, then feed them sugary food/summer daylight ryegrass for a few days and video them again. The effect with my own would be very clear.

 

[Oberon]

'Yellow line: showing the position of P3'

I took it to mean the new growth following P3 from the top?