Bargey Horse Advice

[Luckylocalian]

As a forum of horse-lovers that largely detests hitting their horses I was just wondering how people teach their horses to be respectful on the ground? Especially interested to hear from those with biggies and how they have taught them to not abuse their size. Thanks!

 

[jumpthemoon]

Well, I've taught mine to stand on the yard without being tied up while I untack, by each time he moves when I haven't asked him to, I just put him back again. Even if it is very slight movement - he goes back where he was. That didn't take long to achieve, he soon got the message! Another trick I like for bargy horses is if they are barging towards you, dig two fingers into their chest to push them back - much more effective than a flat hand etc. Or use a short whip - push them back with the end of it.

I'd never hit my horse in an attempt to gain his respect - don't see how that would work

 

[saskia295]

My instrument of choice is the "be nice" headcollar. After leading him around in it for a couple of days, I have not had a problem since. It really has been a huge help. Good luck!

 

[*hic*]

My young mare was taught by lovely Barry (who eventually backed her for me) using a thin rope halter. She was initially taught to move away from pressure, which was a very gentle acitivity. When it came to dealing with her barging I was quite surprised by how "hard" he was with her - every move into "his" space was accompanied with him stamping aggressively towards her and tugging on the halter, resulting in her backing away fast.

As someone unused to "natural" horsemanship I didn't know what to expect. I have to say this technique worked very well. She'd already managed to knock me over and injure me but she is vastly improved now. She has never been hit for misbehaving on the ground - nor has she needed to be since Barry taught both of us how to behave. I think Barry would say he's not a follower of any particular modern school of thought, but he's taken bits from all he's read and learnt and experienced and added a good dose of common sense. When he came to back her she worked very happily with him and it was a very calm but swift process.

 

[fairhill]

Chloe (shire x cylde) used to have a tendency to walk out of her stable if the door was open, and just keep walking. We always made sure the door was shut, but YO had got careless... until she got between Chloe and the doorway and broke her ribs trying to keep Chloe in the stable.

Chloe was put back into her stable, and a yard brush was employed the next time she tried it (it only needed to to be used once) and she now knows the 'wait' command.

We also put up a metal bar at the front of the stable, mainly to stop her banging, but also so there's an escape route for handlers

 

[Shilasdair]

I teach them to respect my personal space by asking them to go 'back' with a clear voice command, and then prodding them in the chest with a finger. When they do go back, I follow them for a couple of strides praising, and then reward them with a treat or a pat...(but mine are not nippy).
If they are seriously invading my personal space, I skin twitch their chest, and/or elbow them til they move out of my way....but this is a last resort.
They very quickly learn to be good, and to work for their rewards.
S

 

[Luckylocalian]

Thanks! The problem I have had recently is unloading him from the trailer (which he is just learning to go in and out of - I have not actually moved it with him in it yet!). He just barges me out the way and leaps off, sometimes shoving his tail in the air and doing little mini rears/plunges. I know a lot of this is because he is unsure of the trailer but it is also extremely rude and dangerous! Any advice on working with a tense horse in a small space?

 

[TarrSteps]

Hitting pushy horses isn't very effective - usually by the time someone does that it's waaaaay too late. Also, you are quite likely to provoke an unwanted, extreme response, either with the horse coming at you or leaping away (not preferable as you are still technically out of control), rather than simply teaching the horse to stay out of your space in the first place.

It's not at all difficult to teach horses to respect your space, just as they do each other's, and it rarely has to come down to brute force, especially if it's taught early and thoroughly enough. Say what you will about "natural horsemanship" it at least makes people see this as a systematically learned equine skill, rather than something the horse just does or doesn't do.

Of course, good horsemen for centuries have - often without really even thinking about it - taught their horses to respect them and their personal space. It has to be done on the ground, consistently and unemotionally, preferably as soon as possible in the horse's education. Many people are inconsistent or not strict enough over what they consider minor breaches of respect and then wonder why all bets are off the minute the horse is upset or otherwise motivated not to listen. Good manners have to be a habit.

The trailer issue is a bit more complicated as it involves two separate problems. First, he has to routinely accept your control as a general rule. Then you use this respect to control AND REASSURE him while you are educating him on how to load and unload correctly. It's not just a case of practice (although this sometimes works just by chance) it's a case of PERFECT practice.

Does he do all his ground work - move only in the direction you want, at the speed you want, off light pressure? Can you move his hips and shoulders independently and control how/if he crosses his legs to step over? This set of skills is the basic building block for almost everything we do with horses and if it's shaky it almost always calls something else into question, although what may be different for different horses.

Once you have that control when things are quite, make sure you can get it when things are stressful. Then you should be able to apply it to your trailer loading and unloading.

Exactly how you go about this training depends a bit on the horse and the circumstances. The tools and aids people have mentioned - control halters, skin twitches etc. - all work to enforce particular requests, depending on the actions and reactions of the horse.

You really want to get this sorted - horses that fly backwards off the trailer are a real danger to themselves and those around them. I cannot tell you how many stories I've heard about horses slipping, scalping themselves on the trailer roof, running over people, falling off the ramp etc. Not to mention that shipping should be as low stress as possible for all concerned, given that it is only the start of the day.

I know I'll get shouted down for saying this but best is to get shown by someone who knows, using you and your horse as examples. It's so easy on the internet to give the wrong advice. And timing is a MAJOR part of success in this, so it's very difficult to learn by remote. That said, there are many good books on the subject and working through their established exercises should give you success, given that you are dealing with a "normal" situation. Books also have the advantage of letting you work at your own pace.

Good luck with your training.

 

[Shilasdair]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks! The problem I have had recently is unloading him from the trailer (which he is just learning to go in and out of - I have not actually moved it with him in it yet!). He just barges me out the way and leaps off, sometimes shoving his tail in the air and doing little mini rears/plunges. I know a lot of this is because he is unsure of the trailer but it is also extremely rude and dangerous! Any advice on working with a tense horse in a small space?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a sign of anxiety...and that you are taking things a little too quickly. I'd advise you to go back a step until he is not only doing each step of loading, but doing it in a very calm, blase fashion. If possible, feed him on the ramp only for a good few days...then gradually feed him inside....without the partitions. Then give him a haynet inside...and groom him as you would normally. Then try walking him round a few times - do a big circle and walk him up one ramp then straight through and out....then change it and walk him in the front ramp and out the back. Maybe let him sniff all around it, and sprinkle some pony nuts for him to 'find' around the trailer.
If you start 'upping the anti' with him...you may find you tip the scales the wrong way and he'll refuse to load at all.
Oh, and please always wear a hat, gloves, and put him in a secure headcollar...with a lunge line or long rope. If he does barge you, I'd elbow him and chase him (quietly) til he moves out of my space....but stop once you've made your point without making him a quivering wreck

OR you could beat him for fun

S

 

[muddy_grey]

Working on the ground with a voice command is really useful I use Wait. Whenever I led my horse I would not let them move until they were relaxed. They learnt that Wait meant and would not move on the yard without being told. I had one who had a bad experience on a ramp as a youngster. I never managed to stop him leaping down the ramp, but being able to ask him to wait until I was out the way was really helpful. Also you could try using a lunge line so you have more room to get out the way. The other option with a trailer is to back him out.

 

[fairhill]

[ QUOTE ]
Hitting pushy horses isn't very effective - usually by the time someone does that it's waaaaay too late. Also, you are quite likely to provoke an unwanted, extreme response, either with the horse coming at you or leaping away (not preferable as you are still technically out of control), rather than simply teaching the horse to stay out of your space in the first place.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not advocating hitting bargey horses (or any horse) but the OP wanted to know how people had taught their horses to respect their space, and this is one of the things that worked for MY horse in a bargey-type situation.

Had the OP posted the background regarding the trailer problems originally then I wouldn't have replied as the situations are very different. I'm sure hitting this one would certainly escalate matters, especially as the horse sounds quite a sensitive type

 

[Shilasdair]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hitting pushy horses isn't very effective - usually by the time someone does that it's waaaaay too late. Also, you are quite likely to provoke an unwanted, extreme response, either with the horse coming at you or leaping away (not preferable as you are still technically out of control), rather than simply teaching the horse to stay out of your space in the first place.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not advocating hitting bargey horses (or any horse) but the OP wanted to know how people had taught their horses to respect their space, and this is one of the things that worked for MY horse in a bargey-type situation.

Had the OP posted the background regarding the trailer problems originally then I wouldn't have replied as the situations are very different. I'm sure hitting this one would certainly escalate matters, especially as the horse sounds quite a sensitive type

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, dear, have you been beating your ickle ponies AGAIN, fairhill. And for a meagre thing like broken ribs?!
S

 

[fairhill]

[ QUOTE ]
Oh, dear, have you been beating your ickle ponies AGAIN, fairhill. And for a meagre thing like broken ribs?!

[/ QUOTE ]

I am a cruel and irresponsible horse owner, and not fit to keep horses on any form of livery

My horses hate me and spend their time planning ways to infuriate and annoy me in revenge for their regular spanking sessions

 

[Luckylocalian]

Thanks all for your advice. Can anyone recommend a book on groundwork - it is something that I have been recommended previously by H&Hers and would like to have a decent reference point to have a go.

Unfortunately my horse is aware of his size and although he is lovely 98% of the time the other two he is quite a handful... big baby and all that! Really appreciate your advice and going to print this post and take it with me...

Please if anyone else has any further suggestions then I will keep checking! Thanks

 

[ISHmad]

The Kelly Marks Perfect Manners book is good.

I would say groundwork, groundwork and more groundwork. You basically need to teach your horse to respect your space. So set boundaries as to how close your horse can come to you. Is it right by your side, one arms length away etc. Once you set some boundaries you will be surprised just how quickly they pick it up and how settled lots of previous bargey horses can become. They don't actually know that they are being bargey, it is just that noone has taught them the "rules" so to speak.

 

[cazza]

Ok will get cruicified for this but one of the horses used to like to squash you against the wall in his stable, so armed with spurs on the arms, everytime he tried to lean we would just position our arms so he was leaning against the spur. Soon sorted him out.

 

[TarrSteps]

Fairhill, I wasn't replying to you personally, just running my internal movie of someone hitting an already out of control horse and having it not go well! Seen it too many times.

Hey, I'm all in favour of a little strict boundary setting - after all they kick each other if someone gets out of hand. It's all in the timing . . . .

Personally, I think the horses set me up. They do their absolute worst when the most pacifist potential client in lurking and then stand there, contrite, while I try to dig myself out of the hole of "horse abuser".

Quite frankly, if someone's going to have to feel a little bit of pain it's the one of us that weighs 1200lbs! I'm just saying usually by the time it gets to that point it's all gone pear shaped anyway and someone's dropped the ball earlier on.

 

[fairhill]

Oops, tis my paranoid personality, and guilty complex (alongsie the perils of quick reply)

I have to say your posts are always well thought, sensible, and normally spot on

 

[Theresa_F]

Cairo moves on a finger and/or voice command, and Chancer does most of the time. As a youngster Cairo walked over everyone (literally) using his not inconsiderable weight - he is clydesdale and not short on the bulk. An old boy who had worked with heavies all his life came to sort him out - Cairo refused to listen, tried to squash the old boy and he was given a couple of hard slaps with a whip and taught to move immediately where asked and to this day, some 20 years later is a true gentlemen with respect for your space. He never needed to have a second "sharp" lesson.

Chancer from 18 months was taught to back up if I walk towards him in an agressive manner. Initially he had a few slaps on the chest with a short whip as he was a really bolshy bugger and now needs no more than an occasional finger poke.

Most of the time body langage is all that is needed - by this I mean staring him in the eye and I use the "fish finger stance" - I make myself large and square with my arms and very stiff. I will if necessary stamp my feet and growl - normally he is stopped dead in his tracks and will submit and back up.

He did go through a phase of dragging. Dog choke chain was threaded through the headcollar under his jaw - a few tugs made him realise dragging people was uncomfortable and not to be done.

When he tried leaning and squashing me he was given a very hard jab with an elbow and at one point the handle of the hoof pick was used. If he tried to barge out of the stable he was poked hard in the chest and backed up. When he refused to move over on a finger and he knew what was wanted, I used to flick him with an old leg strap harder each time repeating the command. I have not used a leg strap for over a year, command and finger works every time.

I am not saying all horses need a leg strap etc, but Chancer did - I could have stood all day asking him nicely to move while he ignored me as I went blue. He is aware that if he does as I ask, then he is rewarded, whilst refusing to move or barge results in a flick with a strap - he is an intelligent little lad and knows what is easiest.

At the end of the day a large heavy horse that does not move when immediately asked or have any respect for your space is an extremely dangerous thing to have round.

 

[Luckylocalian]

Theresa_F that is interesting reading and (confirming what was said above as regards to how horses actually communicate when one oversteps the mark) starting to think that sometimes I do need to be clearer and firmer with him which may include a tap with a legstrap/whip end/sharp finger/spur/hoofpick/whatever to give a short clear message..... worried that I sound like a horse beater now!

 

[snurse]

They don't have to be big - my little Dales is a very rude horse - much barging and pushing. I've tried lots of things without much success. My friend had a method with her horse - she carried a 'naughty stick' - horse was never hit, just poked a couple of times. After that, he only had to see the naughty stick.