Barging cob!

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superted1989

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Just having a scout around for ideas as I'm at a loss!
Just recently, Markie has been barging out of his stable as soon as the door is open. The other day he did it five times on the trot! When I'm alone, he's fine (he's gone through me once, when I first got him) but he's terrible with one of my friends. She's given up opening the door, unless she's getting him out, and just climbs over!
I'm not a great one for whacking horses (even though most people save give him a few wallops and he'll stop) but I am bad for always having treats! I put my hand in my pocket and Markie is far more interested in that than climbing over me. However, it's not fair to expect others to have to bribe my horse out of the way!
I'm thinking about attaching a bit of electric fence tape between the door and wall, so that it opens just far enough to squeeze in and out, as he's very respectful of fencing. The worry there is that he won't want to go through the door when it's not attached. Or, keeping a water pistol handy?
A while ago, he worked out how to flip up the breast bar in the truck. Seeing a large, HW cob wedged sideways in a 3.5t Ifor truck is quite impressive. Once he'd done it the once, he kept on doing it. I've had to tie it down now (not very safe) and hopefully, he'll forget to try it after a while (didn't attempt it on Sunday). I'm hoping he'll forget the barging once we've worked out a way to dissuade him!
Any suggestions appreciated, thanks
 
I had this problem with a cob I used to own... like yours she was respectful of me but had no problems with mowing down anyone else at the stable or coming out of the field :rolleyes:

I trained her to walk back on voice command and when she did so I walked towards her and gave her a treat. We did it outside first, then in the stable, then got various people from the yard to practise with her in the stable, then from outside the stable (with someone inside to give her a treat) and gradually we built it up by saying 'back', then opening the door a little way, then whoever was inside treating and closing the door again... little by little just worked it up to being able to open the door with her backing up and waiting paitiently. Eventually she got the idea and used to back herself up whenever anyone even moved to open her door. It didn't matter that she didn't always get a treat (similarly I didn't want to ask everyone to carry food around for her!) - she still did on enough occasions to keep the behaviour :) The same trick worked in the field - she learned to back up and wait to have her headcollar put on.

Now I'd clicker train it, but I didn't know about clicker training when I had her!
 
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cobs are so rude!
Mine has always done this and i finally got it sorted using his leadrope and headcollar - always in my hand and if he attempts to barge he gets a whack in the chest with it - only had to actually whack him a couple of times (always on chest) - now if he even threatens to barge i wave it and he backs off - not made him at all shy of headcollar - he just knows now i wont stand for his rudeness and i will whack him if he tries it again - dangerous rude behaviour :mad:
 
Just a thought. We had this problem with a gelding here that suddenly started barging out of his stable. It turned out he didn't like his drinker water. He had previously been okay, but maybe a bird had pooped in it one day and he didn't like it. He was basically barging out to get to the water trough in the field. He is fine again now after I got him to use his drinker again by putting a bit of brown sugar in the water until he trusted it again. Probably nothing to do with why your boy is doing it though, but there maybe a simple reason behind his behaviour.

I had a barging problem with my mare once and I solved it by clicker training her basic commands so that she backed away from the door on command.
 
My lad did this a couple of times. We caught him and made him walk backwards into his stable, only took 2 times and he quickly learnt! Also I would pop his head collar on over the door then at least you have something to grab hold of. Hope you get it sorted.
FDC
 
I know we shouldn't laugh but give cobs an inch and they'll take a yard!! Your friend either has to "man-up" and get assertive or you need to invest in a stall chain that she can attach on the inside of the stable door so that when she opens it, she can duck under the chain and he can't escape. I hope she'll choose the former as she'll have a better relationship with your horse if she sets boundaries.
 
My cob does exactly the same .We tried a barge bar but he broke two and now we scare him with the hosepipe.You could try through a football into the back of the stable or even tie him up over the door.
 
It's all about body language. Your friend needs to be more assertive with him.

I'd follow TrishC's excellent advice and teach him to back to a voice command. Then there needs to be a consistent expectation that he will step backwards before the door is opened. I certainly wouldn't do anything to frighten him away from the doorway, that could have unforeseen, dangerous consequences.
I have nothing against treats and often give them out myself but always insist on good manners, so that treats are a reward not a bribe.
 
i made and still do make my horse back up two steps when i reach the stable door, once open he has to stay before he is allowed out. He used to barge too we would just be uplatching the door and he would somehow slip through., i just kept at it even walking him in and out the stable upteen times daily.
 
Thank you all, darned cobs are a pain once they realise their size!
Trish C, that sounds like the way forward for him. I always say back, move over, or whatever I want him to do, then praise/treat/pat when he (sometimes, eventually!) does it. My mate does tend to get a little 'agressive' when things go awry and he's probably picked up on that.
Just realised I've automatically typed 'door', he doesn't have a door, it's a 5 barred gate! He's in a converted barn, lovely, big stables with plenty of air, but not suited to bars.
I'm 99% sure it's just a 'trying it on' thing, we will convince him that just because he can do something it doesn't mean he should!
 
Wagtail said:
I had a barging problem with my mare once and I solved it by clicker training her basic commands so that she backed away from the door on command.
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Yep, agree with this....bargy-cobs-r-us, (regularly have a young cob-boy who will run over top/barge/generally be rude if allowed) teach him to back up (which he will probably resist, but do it anyway) and get him to give you a bit of respect.
You can also teach this out of the stable on a knotted rope pressure halter and long rope..then use it every time to get him away from the door, without the equipment.
 
This is so cob like, I love cobs but hate their attitude on barging and pushing their weight around.
Mine are well manered and wouldn't dare barge out of their stable, they would me met with a crack they'd not forget in a hurry if they did.
No I don't abuse them, they can't wait to come to me, but they respect me as herd leader and a growl is all I ever have to use now, but that is because I've been through the boundaries before, they kick I kick, they bite I bite, they barge they get wolloped and driven backwards and they fully understand my response because its exactly what another horse would do.

I'm afraid most bargy cobs are due to timid handling and pussy footing about, they best understand quick sharp blunt lessons and respect is vital with their type with them being so strong :D
 
darkhorse123 said:
cobs are so rude!
Mine has always done this and i finally got it sorted using his leadrope and headcollar - always in my hand and if he attempts to barge he gets a whack in the chest with it - only had to actually whack him a couple of times (always on chest) - now if he even threatens to barge i wave it and he backs off - not made him at all shy of headcollar - he just knows now i wont stand for his rudeness and i will whack him if he tries it again - dangerous rude behaviour :mad:
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This pretty much sums up why cobs are inclined to be 'rude'. It's because most people haven't got a clue how to manage them!

Cobs are often regarded as an easy option. They don't eat much, and are laid back dopes...aren't they? Well, yes they can be, but only if they are trained to the same high standard required of any other horse where manners are concerned.

People lean on their cobs, and the cob leans right back. In a test of strength, the cob wins. People then hit them. That is how cobs are made 'rude'. They are the same as any other breed in that they will lean into pressure unless trained to yield.

OP, train your cob to yield to pressure, and to respect your space. Cobs don't appreciate being knocked about.
 
superted1989 said:
Thank you all, darned cobs are a pain once they realise their size!

I'm 99% sure it's just a 'trying it on' thing, we will convince him that just because he can do something it doesn't mean he should!
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I think that you are right!
We once bought a Clydesdale mare from a RS, to be ridden by a novice, rugby-playing, large OH. As he brought her in across a field and the yard, she got stronger and stronger and 'swiped him off' on the door frame as she went into the stable. When we shut the door so that she couldn't, she simply ran him into the closed door.
My sister swapped horses with him, although he was very doubtful about her ability to deal with this very strong horse. The mare never gave 5'6", 9 stone sister a moment's trouble - simply because she expected her to be mannerly.
 
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I am afraid that the horse needs to be taught immediately not to barge, as once they start they can break gates, doors fences etc. Mine are all polite, but I will never allow them to barge. They are taught the word 'back' as soon as i get them, if they do not instantly respond to my voice command then they will get a tap with the schooling whip and if they don;t back immediately to that then I am afraid it is a hard wack, always accompanied by the word 'back'. One of my liveries tried to cuddle her cob into behaving well, lots of treats, lots of praise. He walked all over her, pushed past her whenever she entered. broke the door bar, he then tried barging past other liveries bringing horses in out of the field. Trampling over owners, barging his way through half open gates. I took to leading him out and in, and everytime he barged I backed him up hard, and I mean at spead and with some force. Some days it took ages to get him in from the field. but he was never allowed to get away with it. It took about a week of consistant treatment and then he became a far nicer horse to deal with. And actually a far happier horse as he knew his place. Yes we had to keep on top of him as if you were a bit weak with him he would know and start to take liberties again.
 
AengusOg said:
This pretty much sums up why cobs are inclined to be 'rude'. It's because most people haven't got a clue how to manage them!

Cobs are often regarded as an easy option. They don't eat much, and are laid back dopes...aren't they? Well, yes they can be, but only if they are trained to the same high standard required of any other horse where manners are concerned.

People lean on their cobs, and the cob leans right back. In a test of strength, the cob wins. People then hit them. That is how cobs are made 'rude'. They are the same as any other breed in that they will lean into pressure unless trained to yield.

OP, train your cob to yield to pressure, and to respect your space. Cobs don't appreciate being knocked about.
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flicking a leadrope into his chest when he threatens to stampede me is hardly "knocking him about "
FYI i had to teach my cob manners when i bought him as a 6 yr old from a teenage girl who had let him get away with murder - he was very very rude and with the help of a fabulous instructor I have turned him into a loving very well mannered horse - please do not insinuate I have or do knock my horse about :mad::mad::mad:
 
Bosworth said:
I am afraid that the horse needs to be taught immediately not to barge, as once they start they can break gates, doors fences etc. Mine are all polite, but I will never allow them to barge. They are taught the word 'back' as soon as i get them, if they do not instantly respond to my voice command then they will get a tap with the schooling whip and if they don;t back immediately to that then I am afraid it is a hard wack, always accompanied by the word 'back'. One of my liveries tried to cuddle her cob into behaving well, lots of treats, lots of praise. He walked all over her, pushed past her whenever she entered. broke the door bar, he then tried barging past other liveries bringing horses in out of the field. Trampling over owners, barging his way through half open gates. I took to leading him out and in, and everytime he barged I backed him up hard, and I mean at spead and with some force. Some days it took ages to get him in from the field. but he was never allowed to get away with it. It took about a week of consistant treatment and then he became a far nicer horse to deal with. And actually a far happier
horse as he knew his place. Yes we had to keep on top of him as if you were a bit weak with him he would know and start to take liberties again.
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This.
 
superted1989 said:
I'm thinking about attaching a bit of electric fence tape between the door and wall, so that it opens just f
I'm not a great one for whacking horses (even though most people save give him a few wallops and he'll stop) but I am bad for always having treats! I put my hand in my pocket and Markie is far more interested in that than climbing over me.
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You are the sort of owner that thinks that your horse will 'love' you because you always have treats in your pocket and that if you lay down rules and boundaries and he needs correction for not obeying them that he will no longer 'love' you.

This is, to quote Dr Phil, the most insidious form of cruelty. You are teaching your horse that he can do as he wants when he wants and get rewarded for being exceedingly bad mannered.

I have had more than one ill mannered argy bargey horse nearly flatten me and I had a friend who received serious injuries when such a cob barged out the stable, knocking her over and she received a serious concussion (she was unconscious for four days) Just how would you feel if your horse caused such an injury, just because you are either afraid, to ignorant, to darn soft or just plain lazy, to reprimand him?

Put a strong chain about mid chest height across the door and have an equally strong clip to fasten it to the ring, let him barge into that a few times, it will help teach him. Do not use the chain when the door is closed and do not use two chains as he probably paws and door bangs and could get his foot caught over it. One chain at the right height will keep him in. You can reach over and fix the chain before you open the door. When he is in the stable and the chain down, do not hook it up to one side, just leave it dropped on the floor.

Make sure that when you go into the stable that he moves back at least two paces. If he doesn't then give him a slap across the chest with a whip or his halter rope.

When you are going to take him out make sure he is standing back and do not allow him to move one inch towards the door unless you ask him. If he does then you make him go back more steps than he moved forward.
Make sure you stand by him with the door open, watch his knees as the weight will go onto one leg before he moves and correct him hard and fast before he gets a step in.
No treats in the stables under any circumstances.

Bully the beggar, give him a taste of his own medicine and insist he does behave.

Are you proud of owning a horse that others think is an ill mannered animal, or would you rather people said "He use to be so bargey but she has really trained him in manners?"

I can assure you that if he were here for a couple of days he would be standing back and waiting his orders and asking permission to blink. I would not beat him up but he would learn that I took no nonsense and ill manners that are bordering on dangerous are a definite NO I would do this without having to beat him up.
Life would be tough for him with me but I know that I would be able to catch him from the field and do what I wanted to him and he would appreciate being told rather than doing the telling.
 
It's not just cobs that barge, our CBxTB broke my OHs ribs not once but twice, despite having manners, waiting to be asked to walk on, wait for her food etc, our problem was she bonded so closely with her stable/field mates if she was left in stable/field even for 5 mins she stressed so much she lost the plot and was so desperate to be with another horse people didn't count, she is now with my daughter down south and still causing problems with seperation anxiety, I really think it might be best to pts and this is after 3 years of trying everything we can think of
 
there is a place here for taking advice from "both sides" imo ........ you can teach him the back command using positive reinforcement when he complies but having consequences of behaviour if he does not then comply with a known cue.



I prefer to actually be proactive tell the horse what you want and reward it rather than just wait till it does something that merits punishment .....of course if a human is at risk of squishing then safety reactions are understandably necessary ;).

I think there too is a difference in pressures used when training what you want and reacting to dangerous behaviour. I dont start asking a horse to back up with high pressure preferring to give them the chance to do it willingly and softly ( dont know if he already does this and is choosing to ignore the ask ... this then of course I would react differently to ;)



Giving a horse treats without asking him to do something first ( you say he seeks it when you come into the stable) I do agree must stop. If you do decide that treats are a useful way to train him to do stuff then he must not be fed treats by hand ever unless he has been asked to do something as this will create frustration.

It helps too if you have some sort of marker to tell him what it is he has actually done to merit the treat ( thats why CT trainers have either a clicker or a sound )


I agree too about thinking as to maybe he has had a fright in the stable ..... my horse became very reluctant to be in one of the stables and turned out some lads had been banging on the back as well as there being a wasps nest in the wall :eek: :eek: :eek:...... and she is not even "locked in" as they are yerded with access to them if they want in winter,

Whilst the behaviour still has to be addressed it might change your approach to it as I certainly would be reluctant to enforce punishment in an area the horse already has unpleasant associations with. ..... suppose you would have to be looking to see if he is eager to enter the stable or not. He might not be overt in showing his reluctance to go in but just eager to get back out after a while in it :rolleyes:

just worth a thought.

and agree... once you have decided what to to ... everyone that gets him out has to do the same as you ......... consistancy is the key. ;)

I hope this gets resolved soon ... not very safe or pleasant for anyone involved :o
 
I am quite new to cob ownership after a lifetime of TB's WB,s and Irish sport horses I have in the last two years got two cobs a Irish draught and a welsh cob/ Clydesdale it's clear to me despite very different upbringings they have both been taught to use there size and strength to get their own way the Clydesdale / warmblood was an awful at barging out the door and would knock you about as you groomed him and had no respect for your space at first I tried correcting with the voice and being consistent but after he barged out running straight over me I took a dressage whip to him and he sharp learned manners you still have to watch him if he gets too many cuddles he gets naughty so I do have to ration them.
The Irish draught did not barge out of the stable but was a nightmare to lead off a head collar if he decided he wanted to go some where other than where you leading him to off he went and there was no stopping him he would also go right that's enough lunging and just go pulling the line straight out of your hands I did a basic retraining with him from the ground and that did the trick but he is a sweeter character that the other one.
 
tazzle said:
there is a place here for taking advice from "both sides" imo ........ you can teach him the back command using positive reinforcement when he complies but having consequences of behaviour if he does not then comply with a known cue.
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I think your approach is a very good one - in fact, almost certainly the best. However, there is one serious problem with it, which is that many people are not prepared to lay the groundwork for good behaviour by taking time to teach the basics like yielding to pressure, leading, standing still, moving over and backing up upon which other tasks, like loading, mounting and being in full control of a horse going in and out of the stable, are based. They would rather wait for difficult situations to arise and then deal with them in a "no nonsense", i.e. punishment-based, way. Unfortunately, not everyone is capable of carrying this through effectively because they lack the necessary confidence and determination to win at all costs - and even if they do, the results can be less than ideal. Preparation is the key, but that takes time and the recognition that spending a little time working on basics in a safe place will reap enormous benefits in the longer term.

By the way, I'm not saying one has to train the basics using only positive reinforcement, or that the reward has to be food. Negative reinforcement could be used too, and maybe even - *gasp* - punishment occasionally, though hopefully in a limited and measured way. Actually, one could get good results with negative reinforcement - pressure and release - exclusively. Using positive reinforcement alone is also a possibility. The exact mix is a matter of personal choice. The point I'm making here is that laying down rules and boundaries - essential for good manners and safety - is better done as early as possible in dedicated sessions, rather that after trouble arises when your busy trying to do something with your horse and you haven't got time for niceties.
 
fburton said:
many people are not prepared to lay the groundwork for good behaviour by taking time to teach the basics like yielding to pressure, leading, standing still, moving over and backing up upon which other tasks, like loading, mounting and being in full control of a horse going in and out of the stable, are based. They would rather wait for difficult situations to arise and then deal with them in a "no nonsense", i.e. punishment-based, way. Unfortunately, not everyone is capable of carrying this through effectively because they lack the necessary confidence and determination to win at all costs - and even if they do, the results can be less than ideal. Preparation is the key, but that takes time and the recognition that spending a little time working on basics in a safe place will reap enormous benefits in the longer term.
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I've hashed your post in my quote as my comment is general.

I wholeheartedly agree with this. I don't think it's a conscious choice though. Many seem to think their horses should just know what's expected and are therefore being rude or awkward etc.
I believe teaching the basics is so often left out or not revisited when there are problems and people go to a crisis management approach rather than a problem solving one.
Also, horses like humans will often test to see where that individuals boundaries are (that's just animals) so it's up to us to be clear and consistent from the off imo.

ps. I'm sure Tazzle is well aware of the importance of the basics having read many of her posts over the years. :)
 
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amandap said:
ps. I'm sure Tazzle is well aware of the importance of the basics having read many of her posts over the years. :)
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That is strongly my impression too. I've gained a lot from reading Tazzle's posts. The "problem" with her approach is not that it doesn't work; it's that it may seem unnecessary or not worth the additional effort to people who would rather trust their ability to cope in a critical situation, even if that is to the detriment of the horse in the long run. Surely it's better to avoid the critical situations in the first place by creating a more solid foundation of good behaviour?

One thing is clear though - people love "quick fixes"!
 
A horse will only do what it is allowed to get away with. I am by no means a hitter of horses, nor am I a fluffy bunny. Both my horses are big and strong, when we got Fany she hated stables and would regularly try to push her way out, having really not been stabled before. It took very little time and patience to teach her, just a thumb in her chest and a stern voice saying "back up" It is a matter of persistence in my opinion, rather than force.

I agree with the poster who said all horses can be bargy. Personally ground manners are the most important thing to work on with me. I think OP needs to work on those and if it is not working, ask for help. There is no shame in asking for help, I have asked my lovely YO for help before and got it. Better to ask than to have a dangerous horse.

FDC
 
fburton said:
That is strongly my impression too. I've gained a lot from reading Tazzle's posts. The "problem" with her approach is not that it doesn't work; it's that it may seem unnecessary or not worth the additional effort to people who would rather trust their ability to cope in a critical situation, even if that is to the detriment of the horse in the long run. Surely it's better to avoid the critical situations in the first place by creating a more solid foundation of good behaviour?

One thing is clear though - people love "quick fixes"!
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I agree now I understand more clearly your point. However I do think there is a middle ground (well a big and variable one) and I do believe the basics are fairly easy to teach a horse fairly quickly without being detrimental. The problem comes when a horse (as in op's case) is stressed and bargy and it is an entrenched behaviour. The long game is possibly best for the horse but often that horse has to be managed in a yard situation and I think a more strict approach may be needed for everyone's safety. I personally don't believe this is automatically detrimental to the horse or the relationship provided it's fair and consistent. Many disagree on that point I know.

My experience with a new very bargy horse was to take a strict approach and I used a dually halter (shock horror) and I got control over the situation enough so we could then do more subtle work. Would I take this approach again? I don't know because I think... it depends on so many factors.

Has my horse been damaged from that strict, fairly high pressure approach is the question I suppose. I don't believe so, she is perhaps the horse that appears most bonded with me of all mine. My eyes are of course biased.

Yes the quick fix is loved but I do see a difference in getting control over a dangerous situation to creating a softer willing horse in the longer term. I wouldn't continue the strict approach for a quick fix as a norm in my training and day to day handling.

I am not a believer that horses are automatically damaged by being told, as opposed to asked, in fair and appropriate circumstances though.
Mmm, don't think my point is very clear is it?

Just to add having my horses at home I may not be in a position to comment but I do think problems with individual horses should be looked at by the whole yard, ie the yard should work together to try and help all the horses feel safe and secure and relaxed. A bit unrealistic perhaps though. lol
 
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amandap said:
The problem comes when a horse (as in op's case) is stressed and bargy and it is an entrenched behaviour.
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Apologies to op. This is not the case with her horse. I was off on another tack/thread. Should have reread the thread before posting instead of after!
 
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