Bates Easy change gullet and cair system???

[m3gan]

As above - what are your opinions of them? Thinking of getting a 16" dressage pony one for my flat withered flat backed 14.2 Arab, I am a size 10 so would this be suitable, it would be mainly for hacking and pleasure rides?

Would very much appreciate your advice. Thank you !

 

[Jools2345]

i am not a fan after having 4 at work (all replaced after 2yrs) as once the cair settlesitcannot be adjusted to suit the horses change of shape, ie you cannot flock one side more than the other to compensate for uneven muscle or body shape. i am a size 8-10 and found the 16.5 inch seat to small.

my saddle fitter hates them and will not even take cair out and replace with flocking as he reckons he has seen many that are an ok fit but none that fit like a glove so its not worth the effort

 

[blood_magik]

I have a caprilli and I'm not a fan of it.
I haven't had any problems with it so far (only had it for 8 months) but I wouldn't buy another. We only went for it because it's adjustable

 

[m3gan]

Thank you for your help, I was considering getting a secondhand one, but I will think twice now. Any other suggestions for my ned? Who does tend to change shape, what are peeps thoughts on Barefoot Treeless?

 

[ladyt25]

Why not get a flocked on as opposed to Cair? I have just got a Wintec as quiet frankly I didn't want to spend a lot of money on a saddle seeing as he's 4 and going to change shape a lot. Once he's stopped growing I will probably invest in something 'better'. I have no experience of these adjustable saddles, although the Kent and Masters I have for my horse seems to suit him. My youngster though as just recently found a new 'trick' to evade doing what I want him to do (this involves him napping and bucking violently - he has had me off twice in 2 weeks but this has only happened at shows). I do not know whether it is just coincidental that this is happening since having this saddle so am keen to find out if the saddle is doing something to maybe encourage him to do this!

I do think it's doubtful but I will be upset if I find that is the cause!

That's not really very helpful to you mind!

My sister has a Barefoot treeless. I personally don't like it at all as find it really uncomfortable and it feels like you are perched on top on the horse in my opinion. Hers is a dressage saddle. I don't know what others they do.

 

[Holly Hocks]

The new Bates saddles are much better than the Bates of old. Not only can the gullet be adjusted, but you can put inserts in the saddles to get the perfect fit. I have a razor withered TB with quite a wide flat back and getting a saddle to fit her was a nightmare - this was the only one which fit - I have the new dressage one. Even my saddler admitted that the Bates of old weren't up to much, and were rock hard but the new ones are lovely - a real improvement. Mine fits my TB like a glove (pity she's off work sick again!!)

Not sure I would buy one for a native or low withered type though - they really do seem to fit the TBs much better - I got a Wintec for my native and sent it straight back - it was awful!!

 

[JBP]

Can I point out most saddle fitters don't like Cair saddles as they are so adjustable and most of them are not trained to fit them!
Once the air settles they need to be refitted with inserts to fit the horses shape, air will settle just the same as flock.
They do not fit themselves they do need fitting by a qualified Cair fitter not just any saddle fitter but they need refitting a lot less then a flock saddle as They are less restrictive.
They don't fit everything obviously but they do fit 99.9% of horses and ponies I have both of mine in them and love these saddles to bits they have freed my horses movement no end.

Don't knock them till you try them that's is all I will say

 

[ladyt25]

Can I point out most saddle fitters don't like Cair saddles as they are so adjustable and most of them are not trained to fit them!
Once the air settles they need to be refitted with inserts to fit the horses shape, air will settle just the same as flock.
They do not fit themselves they do need fitting by a qualified Cair fitter not just any saddle fitter but they need refitting a lot less then a flock saddle as They are less restrictive.
They don't fit everything obviously but they do fit 99.9% of horses and ponies I have both of mine in them and love these saddles to bits they have freed my horses movement no end.

Don't knock them till you try them that's is all I will say

Hmm, I am wondering if that's my horse's problem - the initial saddle (my older horse's K&M) was ok but maybe a tad too narrow and he was head tossing a bit. Got him his own Wintec wide and maybe having that 'freedom' has made him realise he can throw his body about and get me off!

Just to add - our McTimoney guy, who has also done some professional saddle fitting training does like the K&M style as they have a nice wide gullet (ie it does not narrow towards the back like a lot of older style saddles). I noticed the Wintec was similar and this is one thing I was looking for.

 

[JBP]

It is a totally strange feeling the air removes any pressure points the horse may have had in the other saddle, which makes them feel a lot nicer to others

 

[ladyt25]

I dont know - this freedom doesn't seem to be good for my health. I could do without any more trips to A&E following his rodeo act!

 

[m3gan]

Oh great guys to give me a different perspective on the saddles. Thank you!

 

[Jools2345]

all three saddle fitters that i get involved with (work horses and my own) dont like cair but they all rate the kent and masters, the kent and masters also comes in a cob fit which has less flocking at the back and is more suited to horses that are not particularly uphill

 

[JBP]

Everyone has a favourite but I would never go back to flock now because if I have a problem I call my saddle fitter she comes out and changes inserts and gullets if needed then off we go again with in an hour no giving my saddle ti for a week. If you buy a bates or a wintec both are well known names and hold value very well for resale or pop into a local saddlery who has them and ask about them rather then getting internet reviews people are nope likely to complain then praise a product on reviews

 

[Slightlyconfused]

Agree with JBP

We have four horses, a high withered tb with huge shoulder, a normal withered appy and a welsh cross with no wither and flat back.

My bates and wintec saddle fitter who is trained to fit cair has fitted our cair saddles (two gp and the appy has a dressage) to them perfectly.....the welsh cross has gone through so many saddles before I found the cair fitter, they would just fly up her neck so we had to have sticky pads to keep them in place.....now I can ride without a numuh and the saddle doesn't move.

Unless they are trained to fit cair I wouldn't trust a saddle fitter with one as they are a specialist fit.

 

[Roisin_M]

I agree with a few others, saddle fitters do seem to dislike them, I'm sure its only because they do need a specialist fitter. I've got three, all varying ages, one about 5years old, one about 4years old and one is 2years old. Two are the close contact jumping saddles and one is a VSD. All, without a shadow of a doubt, fit perfectly! We've got one shire x tb, 20yo, with muscle wastage and high withers sooo difficult to fit a saddle to, her bates is brill. We've got a ISH mare, getting on a bit, came to us with horrendous back problems, only saddle she's ever been comfortable in is her bates. The third saddle currently doesn't have a horse, but its 5years old and has been on a short coupled chubby mare with a flat back, and a ridiculously thin, high withered TB, both times it was adjusted, fitted like a glove.

 

[WetandMuddy]

I have a Bates Wide. It is fantastic. I have had it for nearly a year and the gullet has been changed 5 times to keep up with my ever changing native. He also has inserts at the front.

I had so much trouble finding a saddle to fit and this really fits like a glove. My saddler is happy to just have a look and change the gullet when he is visiting the yard to see others or come all the way over to just see me.

The cair system evenly distributes the weight. My saddler told me I may need to have the air bags replaced after about 5 years, but a normal flocked saddle should really be re-flocked after that period of time and it will only cost me about £70 to be done.

It is sooooo adjustable - it is brilliant.

 

[sbloom]

I specialise in fitting ponies, I've only seen the Wintec/Bates pony saddles once and to me they are too far off the horses back, which means they can be unstable, and lack "feel" for the rider, and the tree will usually be too curvy from front to back for flat backed witherless horses. Obviously the Wide versions are a little flatter but still.....and I have this issue with the shape of the headplates:

http://saddlefitter.blogspot.co.uk/2011/09/changeable-gullets-details.html

Not to say that they don't work for some horses, but proceed with caution.

 

[Misog2000]

I have a Bates Innvoa with cair and my horse loves it. She goes much rounder and more free in this than in any other saddle. I agree with those that say you needs a cair fitter to look at them.......many saddle fitters don't seem to realise how much adjustment there is in them with the shims that can be fitted

 

[mrhsaddler]

With the Bates and Wintec with Cair, if you run your hand down the panel, there is a ridge where the airbags overlap, which I have found on horses to cause a pressure point, I have a newish Bates in the shop that seems to have no ridge, so hopefully this problem has been sorted now.
It is very easy to remove the airbags and replace with flock, as once the head bolts are undone and the 6 screws in the cantle taken out, the panels come off, then it is a case of pulling the velcro apart and pulling the bags out and refloc as a normal saddle.
My big gripe with these saddles is the shape of the tree, as most float at the cantle due to the curve of the tree.

 

[Holly Hocks]

With the Bates and Wintec with Cair, if you run your hand down the panel, there is a ridge where the airbags overlap, which I have found on horses to cause a pressure point, I have a newish Bates in the shop that seems to have no ridge, so hopefully this problem has been sorted now.
It is very easy to remove the airbags and replace with flock, as once the head bolts are undone and the 6 screws in the cantle taken out, the panels come off, then it is a case of pulling the velcro apart and pulling the bags out and refloc as a normal saddle.
My big gripe with these saddles is the shape of the tree, as most float at the cantle due to the curve of the tree.

Yes the new Bates are much much better. Before I bought mine, this was one of my concerns, and even the saddler said that it had been an issue previously. It seems to be something which has been recitified. I wouldn't have even considered an older one.