Bates wide dressage saddle with Cair?

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Marigold4

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Now my gelding is fully grown and developed (aged 9), I'm considering looking for a different saddle for him as the one I currently have (open, wide seat with little knee roll) gives me very little support. I don't want a deep dressage saddle with big knee rolls though. Whatever I choose it needs to be for a wide horse with a long wither, big shoulders and short back (16.5 max) and we need a biggish rear gusset. The Bates wide dressage is about the only one I can see that ticks those boxes but I have never had Cair and like to be able to play with flocking to get a good fit. Anyone got any experience of this saddle or got any ideas of something suitable?

Just as an aside, are Cair saddles lighter than a flocked one?
 
I had one but didn't get on with it. The saddle fitter said it was a good fit and it did seem to be at the beginning, but it began to slip to one side and tip me forward. In the end I stopped riding in it, sold it to the Saddle Bank and went back to a normal flocked saddle. It certainly wasn't any lighter than the flocked saddle. I hope you find what you're looking for and just because I didn't like the Bates with Cair doesn't mean you won't.
 
Support comes from under your pelvis and ultimately the only way you'll know is trying one, and seeing if you sit in a supported neutral, and legs able to drape correctly underneath you. I'm not a fan, I don't think the changeable headplate options out there work well for wider backs or for that many riders. There will be plenty of other options that would work for your horses shape, and may work for you to a greater or lesser extent, but they're likely to be wooden treed and flocked (traditional British brands) or treeless.
 
One of my shares is a chunky ish cob in the later stages of rehab, and she has a bates dressage saddle. I can easily say its the comfiest saddle ive ever sat in. Obviously this is personal preferance and youre better off trying one out and seeing how you feel with it. If i were buying a saddle i can definitely say id go to bates as a first option!
 
Bates is unlikely to work for that shape of horse.

my TB is similar (wide fit, 34 tree),long withers and short (16 max) he is an Erreplus WR Mono dressage but its going to be much more £££ than a Bates.
 
Marigold4 said:
Now my gelding is fully grown and developed (aged 9), I'm considering looking for a different saddle for him as the one I currently have (open, wide seat with little knee roll) gives me very little support. I don't want a deep dressage saddle with big knee rolls though. Whatever I choose it needs to be for a wide horse with a long wither, big shoulders and short back (16.5 max) and we need a biggish rear gusset. The Bates wide dressage is about the only one I can see that ticks those boxes but I have never had Cair and like to be able to play with flocking to get a good fit. Anyone got any experience of this saddle or got any ideas of something suitable?

Just as an aside, are Cair saddles lighter than a flocked one?
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When they first came out, I bought a Bates Isabelle, Cair, 16.5” and used XWide (white gullet) for a big bodied, 16hh Section D, no issues whatsoever.
In fact, was so comfy for us both that it became my go-to, been hunting, lengthy trail and pleasure rides and general riding - despite the ‘dressage’ label - and since been also used on other Sec Ds with similar success. I’ve had more than one person ask to buy it, over the years, also compliments from vet, bodyworker and physios, used on different Cobs - so absolutely complaints at all, amazed it has proved so versatile and durable, well beyond original expectations! If jumping any height, wouldn’t be suitable, but fine for a few hunt fences, and plenty of spine clearance.
However:
the design of Isabelles has changed though, so cannot comment on what is current, they may well be deeper and more ‘blocky’, because horse fashion has gone that way.
The Wintec versions are lighter than Bates (synthetic v leather), and the Wintec Isabelle Cair version of what I bought (suede finish) is a lot lighter to lift, and that’s never moved or rubbed or caused any issues, either. We also bought the synthetic version for exercising precisely because the Bates was so successful, and obviously much less expensive. Plain, cotton quilted numnahs, very wide Albion girths.
It is going to be what best suits you and your horse, if you get on with the Wintec / Bates structure, potentially a great buy. Some people/ horses can’t tolerate these at all, we’ve been lucky!
 
I’ve had the cair system Bates saddle for over ten years and I prefer it to flocking…no lumps and bumps or unevenness. I feel centered and stable in my seat ( not saying I actually am…but I feel like it lol). I’ve used probably 3 different width gullet bars according to width of horse and add little shims if and when necessary.
 
outdoor girl said:
I had one but didn't get on with it. The saddle fitter said it was a good fit and it did seem to be at the beginning, but it began to slip to one side and tip me forward. In the end I stopped riding in it, sold it to the Saddle Bank and went back to a normal flocked saddle. It certainly wasn't any lighter than the flocked saddle. I hope you find what you're looking for and just because I didn't like the Bates with Cair doesn't mean you won't.
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Interesting that it's not lighter. I would have thought that air rather than flocking would make quite a difference.
 
HighlandCows+Chesnuts said:
One of my shares is a chunky ish cob in the later stages of rehab, and she has a bates dressage saddle. I can easily say its the comfiest saddle ive ever sat in. Obviously this is personal preferance and youre better off trying one out and seeing how you feel with it. If i were buying a saddle i can definitely say id go to bates as a first option!
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Thanks. That's useful to know.
 
Hallo2012 said:
Bates is unlikely to work for that shape of horse.

my TB is similar (wide fit, 34 tree),long withers and short (16 max) he is an Erreplus WR Mono dressage but its going to be much more £££ than a Bates.
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Thanks.That's useful to know. I'll take a look at the Erreplus.
 
Exasperated said:
When they first came out, I bought a Bates Isabelle, Cair, 16.5” and used XWide (white gullet) for a big bodied, 16hh Section D, no issues whatsoever.
In fact, was so comfy for us both that it became my go-to, been hunting, lengthy trail and pleasure rides and general riding - despite the ‘dressage’ label - and since been also used on other Sec Ds with similar success. I’ve had more than one person ask to buy it, over the years, also compliments from vet, bodyworker and physios, used on different Cobs - so absolutely complaints at all, amazed it has proved so versatile and durable, well beyond original expectations! If jumping any height, wouldn’t be suitable, but fine for a few hunt fences, and plenty of spine clearance.
However:
the design of Isabelles has changed though, so cannot comment on what is current, they may well be deeper and more ‘blocky’, because horse fashion has gone that way.
The Wintec versions are lighter than Bates (synthetic v leather), and the Wintec Isabelle Cair version of what I bought (suede finish) is a lot lighter to lift, and that’s never moved or rubbed or caused any issues, either. We also bought the synthetic version for exercising precisely because the Bates was so successful, and obviously much less expensive. Plain, cotton quilted numnahs, very wide Albion girths.
It is going to be what best suits you and your horse, if you get on with the Wintec / Bates structure, potentially a great buy. Some people/ horses can’t tolerate these at all, we’ve been lucky!
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Thanks for replying. I think I might see if there's one I can get a trial of on Saddles Direct etc but I think 16.5 is less easy to find.
 
Muddywellies said:
I understand the Bates tree (points) doesn't suit wider horses. Albion and Ideal trees suit that shape better. Also Black Country.
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It's more the rails and overall tree shape, though tree point length can be an issue. The shape through the middle, the hardest bit to assess, especially for an amateur, can be the most critical. There are also specialist wide horse brands and other brands that have been designed with a different paradigm, whether that's treeless/flexibility or something else.
 
Midlifecrisis said:
I’ve had the cair system Bates saddle for over ten years and I prefer it to flocking…no lumps and bumps or unevenness. I feel centered and stable in my seat ( not saying I actually am…but I feel like it lol). I’ve used probably 3 different width gullet bars according to width of horse and add little shims if and when necessary.
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I've never seen one where you cant feel the cair panels. Theres 2 that meet in the middle of the panel.
 
Marigold4 said:
Thanks for replying. I think I might see if there's one I can get a trial of on Saddles Direct etc but I think 16.5 is less easy to find.
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Well, the Wintec Isabelle (suede) version in 16.5” is currently on eBay, £203.48, no177522653697, altho probably need to buy the wider gullet plate. Good luck!
 
sbloom said:
It's more the rails and overall tree shape, though tree point length can be an issue. The shape through the middle, the hardest bit to assess, especially for an amateur, can be the most critical. There are also specialist wide horse brands and other brands that have been designed with a different paradigm, whether that's treeless/flexibility or something else.
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Yes, totally agree about the rails and tree shape, but finding out what the tree shapes look like and whether or not the rails are flat is very difficult. Black country, for example, have SO many tree shapes, it's mind boggling and their descriptions give nothing away. I need pictures! My horse also needs a big enough rear gusset so that we can accommodate/get over his long wide-ish wither, but most of the saddles with flat rails are designed for a horse with no wither so have a thin rear gusset. I've tried the AH saddles but they don't fit (tip backwards as thin rear gusset).

What I need is a dressage saddle with flat rails, open head but not hoop tree, large rear gusset, flocked so fit can be tweaked, wide fit, 16.5 seat.
 
Exasperated said:
Well, the Wintec Isabelle (suede) version in 16.5” is currently on eBay, £203.48, no177522653697, altho probably need to buy the wider gullet plate. Good luck!
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Unfortunately, I think the tree in the Wintecs are not the right shape for my horse. I have borrowed a couple to try from friends but the tree seems wrong and they lift at the back. Nice idea though. I'd love a new saddle for £200!
 
The Isabell Wintecs fit differently in my experience, they are much flatter, unlike other wintec styles which I find the wider the gullet, the curvier they get, hence lifting and unstable.
If Wintec don't fit, then Bates are unlikely to fit as Bates make Wintec and they are on the same tree; Bates are the leather version, Wintec the synthetic.
 
foxy1 said:
The Isabell Wintecs fit differently in my experience, they are much flatter, unlike other wintec styles which I find the wider the gullet, the curvier they get, hence lifting and unstable.
If Wintec don't fit, then Bates are unlikely to fit as Bates make Wintec and they are on the same tree; Bates are the leather version, Wintec the synthetic.
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Thanks for that information. What a minefield it all is! One of the Wintecs I tried was an Isabel and didn't fit when he was 4/5 but he's changed shape so may be worth trying it again. I'll ask friend if I can give it another go.
 
Sounds like its definitely worth another go- just double check its the Isabell and not the Wintec 2000 dressage, which look quite similar but the Isabell has a deeper rear gusset
 
I had a Bates Wide Dressage a while back for a very large wb (imagine an Ardennes but with looong legs, she stood over 17hh with zero wither).
The saddle itself was actually nice, if you discount the fact that the leather (I had the Heritage variety) was rather poor quality. Unfortunately I couldn't get it to fit my horse properly and on one memorable occasion doing canter work for a dressage trainer my saddle rotated under my horse's belly and I fell (or rather slid) right off. Got rid of it after that incident.
 
Marigold4 said:
I've tried the AH saddles but they don't fit (tip backwards as thin rear gusset).
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Do you know which models/trees you tried? They can be ordered with a deeper rear gusset but obviously budget will come into it, but must be similar to Bates?

Treeless is definitely worth considering, some designs work well for a wither and they hardly ever tip back, needing shimming at the front in many cases (as you can't lift via tree width).
 
foxy1 said:
Sounds like its definitely worth another go- just double check its the Isabell and not the Wintec 2000 dressage, which look quite similar but the Isabell has a deeper rear gusset
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Yep, and also recognise that the Isabelles (whether Wintec synthetic or Bates leather) have altered significantly since Isabelle Werth first endorsed them for the saddlers.
The one mentioned on eBay is similar to the exercise saddle of ours, and there are currently similar, earlier Bates versions on eBay, only larger size.
If you try more recent models of either, looks like they’ve higher, curvier cantles, adjustable stirrup bars, bulky knee blocks (altho can detach the Velcro with these). They also came with ‘flap strap’, which I instantly removed.
 
Exasperated said:
Yep, and also recognise that the Isabelles (whether Wintec synthetic or Bates leather) have altered significantly since Isabelle Werth first endorsed them for the saddlers.
The one mentioned on eBay is similar to the exercise saddle of ours, and there are currently similar, earlier Bates versions on eBay, only larger size.
If you try more recent models of either, looks like they’ve higher, curvier cantles, adjustable stirrup bars, bulky knee blocks (altho can detach the Velcro with these). They also came with ‘flap strap’, which I instantly removed.
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My friend's one is pretty old and so likely to be a curvier tree?
 
The older types as linked on ebay by Exasperated fitted my friend's cob very well. And they are harder to get hold of in the 16.5 seat size. If it was me, I'd buy that one to try as it's cheap, and resell if it doesn't fit. As they don't come up all that often and the newer ones are now totally different.
 
Bear in mind the Isabell can only go to XXW and without a wider head....after all there's a big range from upside down V to hoop...the Wide models go a lot wider. My feelings about "rail" (in quotations marks as solid plastic trees don't have rails) shape would apply to all models.
 
foxy1 said:
The older types as linked on ebay by Exasperated fitted my friend's cob very well. And they are harder to get hold of in the 16.5 seat size. If it was me, I'd buy that one to try as it's cheap, and resell if it doesn't fit. As they don't come up all that often and the newer ones are now totally different.
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That’s a possibility, don’t know what it costs to hire/try saddles from Saddles Direct, etc, by comparison? Been looking, and yes, there have evidently been plenty of changes to the ‘Isabelle’. And no, mine not for sale!
If you are an experienced rider and know this horse well, should be able to work out very quickly whether or not the model is suitable for you both.
One thing; because I actually did this the other way round and was already very confident the exercise (Wintec Isabelle) saddle would be good; is that synthetic saddles are so much lighter these can look ‘perchy’ on your horse until you sit into it. Had I bought the Wintec version first, it’s possible I’d have had reservations before riding away.
TBH, if you’ve got horses to keep fit all winter, pouring with rain, sleet, the rest - a comfortable, lightweight, synthetic has a lot to recommend it for ease of maintenance, altho I once rode in another synthetic brand that was just grim, despite ‘professional fitting’ by that horse owner’s saddler.
If you’re going to do a lot of county showing, or similar, stick with traditional leather.
 
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