BBC news article about the dangers of Bute entering the human food chain

dollymix

dollymix

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21181499
Article can be found above.

Interesting reading, much of what was debated here last month when the whole Tesco burger story debate broke out.

I think it speaks volumes about the passport system and how it is open to abuse. It is far too easy for inscrupable people to obtain replacement or totally new passports to falsify records...making it easy for these horses to then be slaughtered for human consumption.
 
Perhaps this is our chance to push for better passporting system and also get a national database similar to the French system (shame about NEDline but it was never in the same league).
 
Yes, I was surprized when a dealer informed me a horse that had ever had bute cannot go for slaughter for human consumption a few years ago. I still don't understand if it's allowed or if it's safe for animal consumption. I suspect the risk is higher in 'waste' domestic/sport horses as opposed to farmed for meat horses though.

The passport system does need tightening and vets do need to insist filling them
in but it will always be open to abuse at some level unfortunately. Those wishing to get round it for cash reward will always find a way.
 
All my horses are signed out on their passports so they canot go for human use.
I would guess that the source of this powdered horse meat was probally the continent so the source could eastern Europe Russia or any where the horses may well be used up draught horses its an awful trade .
However the risk is some EU Offical decides the safest way to protect us is to ban the use of all such drugs on all horses with appalling consequences for riding horse welfare.
 
I have to admit, that even though I regard myself as an experienced horseperson, I was unaware that passports had to be signed to say the horse could not go for human consumption until a few years ago when I went to Rossdales for the first time and they asked me to sign it. No other vet has ever asked me to sign the passport before administering all kinds of drugs, and they never check to see that owners have done so.
 
The passport system seems open to easy abuse.

When I brought my horse here from the US, I had to get her a passport within 30 days. Fine. I went with the cheapest option available, an agency that pretty much will take on any grade horse. I could have registered her with some kind of posher sporthorse association but that would have required more money and getting my parents to unearth her registration papers from the depths of some box and sending them here. I wasn't that bothered. I just filled out a form and within a few weeks, a passport arrived. It didn't require any verification that the horse was who I said she was.
 
Aside from abusing the passpot system, I have 'Stable Stock' bute and danilon and have never had a passport signed for either, whether I've used from stock or had prescribed.

And as another poster mentioned on a different thread (possibly Wagtail?) I've never had anything scanned to see that the microchip ties up with the passport.
 
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Just to clarify. There is a section of your passport that needs to be completed if the horse is not to enter the food chain. When a vet prescribes Bute they should or should have checked that this section was signed.
 
On a large livery yard you will often have people who loan one another the odd sachet of bute. Are they checking to see that the passports are appropriately signed???

Far too easy for bute to get into the food chain.

Do we know that the horsemeat found in the burgers was deemed as appropriate for human consumption. If not we could be eating anything.
 
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Wagtail said:
I have to admit, that even though I regard myself as an experienced horseperson, I was unaware that passports had to be signed to say the horse could not go for human consumption until a few years ago when I went to Rossdales for the first time and they asked me to sign it. No other vet has ever asked me to sign the passport before administering all kinds of drugs, and they never check to see that owners have done so.
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I've got Weatherbys passports and there are two sections for drugs administered and they are both compulsory if drugs under those sections are given.
 
Double_choc_lab said:
On a large livery yard you will often have people who loan one another the odd sachet of bute. Are they checking to see that the passports are appropriately signed???

Far too easy for bute to get into the food chain.

Do we know that the horsemeat found in the burgers was deemed as appropriate for human consumption. If not we could be eating anything.
Click to expand...

Exactly.......how could you police this. Its impossible. One of my horses has a Danish passport and it doesnt have a page for the vet to sign as he pointed out.... with regards to bute etc.
 
Yes, but as I say, despite being with five different equine veterinary practices in total, I have never been asked for my passports other than to fill in the vaccinations page except for when I take them to Rossdales.
 
I know, vets really do need to insist. I wasn't asked in UK but have been over here. These days I ask them to document. Luckily since Toby was pts I haven't had hardly any vet visits except tetanus jabs, a puncture wound and uveitis.
 
Passports are an utter joke. There's 40+ agencies that issue them and none talk to each other. You could EASILY have 3 passports a horse if you wanted.

My horses have had all sorted of drugs and nothing has ever been written on the passport.

It's a shame as passports COULD work well. They could prevent sellers lying about age and previous illnesses if done strictly. It needs ONE issuer (e.g DEFRA) and needs to be enforced and policed by vets.
 
OWLIE185 said:
Just to clarify. There is a section of your passport that needs to be completed if the horse is not to enter the food chain. When a vet prescribes Bute they should or should have checked that this section was signed.
Click to expand...

Not in all passports - my green Irish passport doesn't have a section and when she went to Liverpool I had to fill a separate piece of paper in!!!
 
But Mr Heath replied: "There is no difficulty in tracing the use of a horse passport. To suggest the National Equine Database was required to do that is simply erroneous."

This bit made me chuckle, how exactly can this be done? Can anyone on here suggest, under the current system, how this is even remotely possible?

I have two horses, how does anyone from any authority know this, or who my horses are, or where they are kept? I've never gotten round to updating my lads passports or microchips from the previous owners and I'm the second owner after the one that's listed.....oops.
 
Ime vets never bother signing when they administer drugs. Just over 4yrs ago I bought a pony with no passport. Vet had no issue with coming out next day & giving me various drugs, including bute. Pony had first jabs before passport came, & it was actually when she had her first booster he signed to say she'd had the others. Fair enough vet knows me & knows there was no way on earth I was sending her for meat. But shows how easily done it is. Plus with older horses born before passports were compulsory, even with the best intentions it would only take a change of home for there to be no record of previous drugs.
 
OWLIE185 said:
Just to clarify. There is a section of your passport that needs to be completed if the horse is not to enter the food chain. When a vet prescribes Bute they should or should have checked that this section was signed.
Click to expand...

But has anyone ever had this done? It's great it should be, but in reality it doesn't happen.

I have never had mine requested to be seen let alone signed by a vet and as said, have lots of bute and danilon as 'stable stock'. None of my own have had anything that stops them entering food chain, but could easily have done and I know plenty of liveries who are fine on passport but not in reality.
 
yes, it is illegal for people to administer prescription drugs if they are not qualified to do so....

I'm not sure how strict the law is but I do remember reading about a chemist who was fined £10,000 for selling prescription medicines without a prescription...obviously this is more serious than someone helping a friend in the stable yard.

A vet must always ask the owner if the horse is likely to be used for human consumption before prescribing anything containing phenylbutazone (bute).

'Bute' has been a human medicine in the past so I don't think it is going to be a major problem from humans if you ate one of these 21% horse burgers where the horses probably haven't recently been treated with any bute products.

Personally I'm more worried about the horse's welfare than that of humans.
 
I have never been asked for my horse's passport when he has been prescribed bute. In fact i have never been asked for any horses i have owned in the past either. Very interesting reading
 
I did wonder when they were going to investigate this when the whole 'beef' horse burger story came out. It is a worry for people who have eaten these as there is clearly some chemical not compatible with humans in order for them to state on a packet not to be used in horses intended for human consumption. My horse is currently on AB's which state in the packet not to be used in horses intended for consumption i had my passport in the box with me but the vet didnt ask for it, although about not highlighting the issue with the vet i didnt actually realise the packets said this until i got home and went to adminster one having never had to use antibiotics for a horse before.
 
Hopefully the whole debarcle will force the govt to take passporting more seriously.

I mentioned on another thread here how my vets never ask to see the passport or cross check with microchip.

What's the point in having one?
 
I feel sorry for all the innocent people but seriously I bet majority of the horse world who are responsibe & did it the proper way, if asked ALWAYS knew this kind of thing was an utter waste of time. Accountability and bureaucracy sucks.

We have had horses PTS and were not once asked but its the whole thing that stinks. We paid to get the horses passported but no one monitors them at all/forged/lost dont have. An utter waste of time.

An utter joke. Life is cheap as always. Big big business.
 
I think we need to be quite careful because it would be a disaster if vets decided/ were forced to only hand out bute/ danilion (same limitations on human consumption) under strict conditions (say only giving a couple of days worth at a time, or after seeing passport and scanning, or worse still have to swap for something that is compatable with consumption but expensive/ less effective!) at best costs would go up massively and at worst horses will not get the painrelief they need.

I could never withold a painkiller from a friends horse if I had a big box of it and they had a need!

I suspect the only practical way to stop it is to test the meat at the slaughter house - no other restrictions/ paperwork systems are foolproof enough for the food chain.

Love to know from farmers how they deal with this in lamb/ cows? - or do they just not get prescribed anything that might possibly do any harm if it got into food?
 
Agree indie999... Two horses were pts at my yard. Neither of the passports were checked by the two different vets, the company used to take them away did not ask for passports or any information on the animals... I don't get why we need one apart from pedigree purposes.
 
kirstyl said:
I have never been asked for my horse's passport when he has been prescribed bute. In fact i have never been asked for any horses i have owned in the past either. Very interesting reading
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Me neither. :confused:

I've got a Sport Horse Ireland passport for my mare and although there's a section asking for a signature, I wasn't asked or told to sign it off.

I agree that passports aren't worth the paper they're written on. I'd had a long break from horses before I bought my late mare, and passports were introduced while I was on my break, so I didn't really know much about them. Anyhow, I spoke to the Horse Passport Agency about putting the passport in my name, and was told "Just give me your name and address and I'll send you a sticker to attach to the passport". And that was it - no proof of ownership, purchase receipt or even contact with the registered owner.

Oh, and my current horse didn't even HAVE a passport. The girl I bought her off thought that the application form with the vet's signature on it was the passport, so I had to send it off. Again, no proof of anything was asked for. And because it's an Irish passport there's no link to NED.

We need one agency and one register (though a combined agency/register would be preferable), with proper checks done when an animal changes hands.
 
With our farm animals. All pain killers or vaccines were still fine, however they had differing times we couldn't send them off. Think from ten days to about 6 months dependant on what was given or what infection it had. Mastitis is an issue from recollection.
 
I don't see how changes or tightening stuff would lead to vets being restricted what they prescribe. What needs to be known is which horses get what drugs. As vets do the prescribing then they are first in line to document imo. However the system needs a total overhaul and to actually work.
 
PandorasJar said:
With our farm animals. All pain killers or vaccines were still fine, however they had differing times we couldn't send them off. Think from ten days to about 6 months dependant on what was given or what infection it had. Mastitis is an issue from recollection.
Click to expand...

Thanks, interesting as the articles (none of which are very scientific) seem to suggest one dose of bute 10 years ago would still be a problem as it never leaves the horses system (not sure how much of this is scaremongering tho!)

For something as long as six months, how do you track which animals have had what? How would a slaughter house know a cow from you wasn't given something 5 months ago? - Just interested that's all.
If there is a good system that works for other species, rather than re-invent the wheel for horses we should just use that!
 
On the bottle of Deosect I have (lice killer and fly repellant) it says that horses it ha sbeen used on must not enter the food chain and must have their passports altered accordingly... They wouldn't go for human comsumption anyway but it isn't in their passports.
 
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