BE vs Unaffiliated and SAFETY!

[*hic*]

Just borrowing Kerilli's safety hat for a moment, might I throw into the discussions the point that for a BE event there are stringent requirements for medical officers, number of paramedics - and the level of their training - as well as the need to have a vet on site. AFAIK this is NOT the case unaffiliated.

Given that the unaffiliated events are run over (in many cases) the same course why should it be assumed that a lower level of emergency / safety backup is required?

 

[kerilli]

i didn't know that, not having done an unaff ODE for absolutely yonks.
hmm. very good point.
tbh i think most eventers just do not let themselves think about that angle. could be totally wrong though...

 

[TableDancer]

I guess you pays your money, literally, and takes your choice - after all, we all go hunting where the presence or otherwise of vet/doctor etc is completely random

 

[LEC]

Disagree - they have the same number of medical help on hand. There are also more volunteers with first aid as most RC/PC have members who can give first aid if needed. There is no technical delegate but the courses tend not to be so technical or to make life easier they run over the exact same BE course. In some ways PC are even tighter with rules than BE is especially with so many parents watching!

 

[tink101]

Tbh the unaffil events I have done have either been pc/rc events and I think that the level of medic's are there for humans not so sure about the vet's or farrier.
I think in this day and age people are to scared of being sued, and frankly it amazes me that we're allowed to go xc at all with out having to sit thru a H&S briefing

 

[skye_and_i]

[ QUOTE ]
Just borrowing Kerilli's safety hat for a moment, might I throw into the discussions the point that for a BE event there are stringent requirements for medical officers, number of paramedics - and the level of their training - as well as the need to have a vet on site. AFAIK this is NOT the case unaffiliated.

Given that the unaffiliated events are run over (in many cases) the same course why should it be assumed that a lower level of emergency / safety backup is required?

[/ QUOTE ]

i agree with you jemima, the quality of medical cover at B E events is far superior to most unaffiliated/pc events! People with first aid are not in the same league as having paramedics on site. In the case of a serious accident seconds count and the medical cover at B E events is nearly equal to walking into an A&E department.
You don't tend to appreciate it until you call upon there services, which i hope we all never will!

 

[Shrimp]

Not true IME. At our PC events, we have either fully trained paramedics or a friends dad who is a surgeon, emergency trained and he is a fully equiped with a 4x4. Mum always writes to the local hospital and vets informing them of the event in the case of emergency. Ok there isnt a vet or a farrier on site but unaff events tend to be alot smaller in terms of numbers and we have never needed a farrier or vet. Remember you get what you pay for. If you wanted vets and farriers etc this would cause unaff entry fees to start to rise towards the same as BE and then everyone would be moaning that it would be too expensive.

The only accident I have ever had was at our PC area HT and the paramedics were fantastic. They had a paramedic on a quad who reached me pretty much immediately, closely followed by a paramedic in a 4x4. Once I was back on my feet about 20 minutes later, they took me back to the lorry park where there was an ambulance permanantly stationed all day. Then they called another ambulance to take me to hospital. Initially they even called the air ambulance which thankfully wasnt needed. (Oh and this was just after another rider had fallen off 10 minutes before me and needed the same medical attention!)
So IME they really aren't as bad as you say

 

[jumptoit]

PC ones do have the same compulsory levels but don't have the same system for signing people on/off etc afaik. Although whilst there are 'lots' (not in my club there aren't!) of trained first aiders from having done the 1 day course the training is not exactly comprehensive or relevant to the equestrian situation imo.

 

[kizzywiz]

Sorry but I diasgree as well, all the ones I have been to have 4x4 with paramedics & vets on call as well as various first aiders.

 

[OldGit]

BE requires that events have at least one doctor, one paramedic crew in a 4X4 and a further crew in a road ambulance. (though most smaller events have 2 or more docs as if one of us is called away jumping stops until Dr is back on site). There is also a minimum requirement for equipment including defibs and airway stuff. Although Docs used to get a bottle of whisky the trend now is to pay "expenses" the paramedics are paid a flat rate nd also travel/subsistence allowance. Pony club have the same requirements, however I have been to other unaffiliated events that have a couple of paramedics in a car!! Medical and vetinary cover do take up a fair slice, ontop of the BE bit.
Although I'm sure some unaffiliateds do provide cover, I'm not sure to what level as I have had very little to do with them.

 

[meardsall_millie]

Many unaffiliated events have a vet 'on call' - not sure if I would agree that's adequate if it was my horse that suffered a serious injury, or worse broke a leg (which can happen over the tiniest of fences) and was then told I had to wait an hour for the vet to arrive to attend to it or put it to sleep?

 

[Chloe_GHE]

[ QUOTE ]

tbh i think most eventers just do not let themselves think about that angle. could be totally wrong though...

[/ QUOTE ] that's my method!

Thinking back to when our local RC used to organise hunter trials (about 17 yrs ago) they never even used to have anyone medical on site the schedule used to just say 'doctor on call' thinking about that I'm not sure that was even legal!!!! that RC folded about 10 yrs ago. I have to say when I am at an event the paramedics and doctors don't even enter my thoughts the only safety/medical thing I took note of this season was the 'horse ambulance' at Tweseldown as it is parked near the xc start, not good for one's nerves!!!!!!

 

[igglepiggle]

I think it depends on the event/venue/organising team but it is one of the reasons why as much as I may moan and groan about the cost, I'll almost certainly carry on with BE over unaffiliated for as long as I can. Having used the facilities shall we say, I am very glad there was both a doctor and two paramedics/ambulance at Smiths Lawn!

 

[ester]

reading what oldgit says I think that normally unaff do not have a doctor on site and normally vet and farrier on call.

for our RC unaff shows that involve jumping we always have some sort of first aid cover that is separate to people with other jobs at the event. (having had an old horse die in the sj a few years ago we also have our local 'man' with winch box on call too)

just checked what stockland lovell say for their unaff ode : first aid in attendence, vet and farrier on call.

 

[ester]

[ QUOTE ]
Many unaffiliated events have a vet 'on call' - not sure if I would agree that's adequate if it was my horse that suffered a serious injury, or worse broke a leg (which can happen over the tiniest of fences) and was then told I had to wait an hour for the vet to arrive to attend to it or put it to sleep?

[/ QUOTE ]

surely this can also happen while jumping at home or xc schooling etc too?

 

[alwaysbroke]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess you pays your money, literally, and takes your choice - after all, we all go hunting where the presence or otherwise of vet/doctor etc is completely random

[/ QUOTE ]

Would also like to add who considers medical cover, vet and farrier when xc schooling?

Some courses provide information on nearest hospital, and verts to call in an emergency, but I have never schooled with all of the above on site

 

[jumptoit]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I guess you pays your money, literally, and takes your choice - after all, we all go hunting where the presence or otherwise of vet/doctor etc is completely random

[/ QUOTE ]

Would also like to add who considers medical cover, vet and farrier when xc schooling?

Some courses provide information on nearest hospital, and verts to call in an emergency, but I have never schooled with all of the above on site

[/ QUOTE ]

I always take a doctor with me

, vet I would check the number if it isn't given and farrier I wouldn't have the number of but would try and get the horse shod just before and not go if that wasn't possible. Most of the time I go with PC and they have 2 first aiders for a group of 3 or 4 children.

 

[meardsall_millie]

[ QUOTE ]
surely this can also happen while jumping at home or xc schooling etc too?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes of course it can but when you're at home or out schooling it is generally a more controlled (or less exciting) environment, without lots of other horses/riders/adrenalin, etc, etc.

I'm not saying that we should all have a horde of doctors, paramedics, vets, etc trailing around after us wherever we go, but when accidents are more likely to happen I'd rather pay an extra few pounds and have that cover in place.

Each to their own at the end of the day.

 

[mantha]

ALW charge a bit more than some for their unaffiliated but have the same doctors, vet and paramedic onsite as they have for their aff. Also a farrier onsite

 

[meardsall_millie]

ALW charge pretty much the same for their unaffil ODEs as their BE ones!

 

[SpottedCat]

[ QUOTE ]
ALW charge pretty much the same for their unaffil ODEs as their BE ones!

[/ QUOTE ]

Nothing to do with safety, but you don't have to spend the best part of £200 registering, you get to run over an identical course to BE and best of all if you win then you get far more than the entry fee back, which is the most you can possibly hope for from BE. Realistically a win PN at BE isn't going to net you any money at all - at ALW last year you got £100 IIRC!

I've done one of the ALW unaff comps - it was easily as good as BE and I've made the decision to start my season unaff this year as I am sick to the back teeth of losing money on BE entry/registration fees when I can't compete for whatever reason.

 

[meardsall_millie]

With regard to ALW (and possibly some of the other big eventing centres) I don't disagree with you at all. I'm also not suggesting that BE is the best or only way to go, I'm simply trying to make the point, for those who are saying that unaffiliated is the same as BE - it's not - if you're looking for safety, good quality courses, etc, etc, then you need to pick your event very carefully.

Having said all that I also accept that some BE events are not all that they should be.

I don't only run my horses at BE events, I think there's lots of good unaffiliated stuff out there too.

 

[thebarn1]

My daughter entered an unaffiliated event and broke her collar bone. There were no paramedics there and they couldnt even be bothered to see if she was ok. All I got was abuse from the organisers as I DARED to say something about their shoddy operation. I will NEVER, EVER let her enter an unaffiliated ODE again. I cant say where it was either as we are taking them to court over it. She competes at BE prenovice and PC events, and you really cant fault the safety at events organised any of those bodies. Wouldnt go near anything unaffiliated now, even though I know it costs a hell of a lot more.