BE XC and Stopwatch wearing

Cullohill

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Just looking for a bit of advice and experience please.......

I am going to Weston for the CCI* (very excited!) and am wondering about wearing a watch for the XC. To date i have not worn a watch with Bud, and previously didn't really wear one with Tina.
This has been mine and Bud's first full season at Novice due to injury and obviously didn't start season pushing for time, towards latter end where it felt right i have pushed more for time and tried to improve accuracy riding to save time and at Knaptoft we came within the time, that is really the only event when everything was right ground course etc.
So my question is do i just do the same at Weston, ride without a watch and ride how i feel, so push where i can and be as accurate as possible........ or do i wear a watch and try do minute markers etc.
If it is the latter how do i practise at home so i get used to wearing one any tips??
I really don't think there is a risk of us going too fast, as, as i said only our first full season, our first * and Bud isn't built like a racehorse
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So words of wisdom please any tips and advice on watches and come to think of it any advice on doing a CCI*, the last and only one i did was back in 2000 in Ireland with Tina (which was amazing)

Thanks
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SpottedCat

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How long is the course at Weston? That is what would influence my decision, because I was told at the BE coaching development roadshow that if your course is over 7mins (IIRC) then if you go over your minute markers for the first 4 mins then experience has shown that your horse will hit a 'wall' at about 7 mins no matter how fit it is - making sure you are on or over your minute markers for the first 4 mins helps to avoid this. I don't have the exact times on me (notebook at home!) but I posted them on another thread a while ago - will have a look and see if I can find them.

ETA - this is what I wrote on the other thread after consulting my notes!!

When I did the Coaching Development Roadshow that BE run earlier this year, they said that for events of 8-9 minutes, if you go over your minute markers for the first 4 mins then you are much more likely (to the point of them saying it would happen no matter how fit you got your horse) to get a brick wall effect at 7 mins and your horse to just hit a wall and not be able to go on. Apparently team orders are always to stick to your minute markers for the first 4 mins then if you can get up on them, great. At the BE roadshow they said none of the pros will get up on their minute markers for the first 4 mins because of this.

Of course maybe I will now be proven wrong and people who've actually competed at that level will shoot me down, but it is what I was told (I took notes!!).
 

Gamebird

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The answer is in short I don't know.

However the optimum at Blair 1* was 8:55 (so some riders took over 10 mins) and I believe at Hartpury it was just short of 8mins.
 

Gamebird

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Sorry Cullohill, didn't see your post, just SC's reply, computer gone all funny.

I threw around the idea of not wearing a watch for a 1* on the basis that we were highly unlikely to do the time, and got very loudly shouted down from all quarters (friends, trainer, CDS, people on here etc.). Basicly they all said it is better to have the ability to know how you're doing. If you have no watch, you don't have the option; that setting out to 'get round' is the starting point for a bad round - you should be setting out to go clear in a decent time (whatever the end result); that it may only be a 1* but next year it may well be 2* etc. and you should be confident and competent with a watch by then etc. etc. etc.

I did wear one, but only did 2 min markers - I could remember tham all easily without writing them down and the course was so variable in terrain that you were always going to be up or down depending on where the hills fell, but with 2 min markers it took the variation out of it a bit.

Good luck - use one for your canter interval work for practice
 

Cullohill

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wow how interesting, i am not sure how long the course is and will def be doing research on that, def food for thought to make sure you don't push too hard at the start so you don't go over the first 4 minute markers...... silly question how do you work out the minute markers? do you need a wheel? make a wheel?

I think i might start doing my fast work with my watch, measure out distances etc and ride to them to get more of an idea? do you think that would help?

Thanks again i must listen out for future roadshows they sound great!
 

Cullohill

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yes that was my thought not likely to make time so no point wearing one, and also worried it might put me off or i might ride differently...... i will set out 100% positive watch or not for a good clear decent time etc and yes maybe one day be doing 2* and need watch etc so get used to one
mmmmm all food for thought!
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how did you work out markers? 2 mins might be good like you say less to remember and think about and less variation comes into play.......
will get mine out and on and see how feels, got use of gallops now so will get it measured and ride to some markers and see how we get on.
Thanks for the luck i am slightly over excited already and buying unessecary items for Bud to wear
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Joss

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Yes you need a measuring wheel. But dont worry, dont go buying one. You will find people there who will let you borrow. Most eventing people (cos we are such luverly, luvly people) will share minute markers with you. But some times its best to do it yourself or better still go with experienced person & their wheel..... & see what lines they walk etc, etc. I think this is a reletively new debate as in the 'olden days' you would not have dreamt of going XC at a 3DE without a watch because you would have been using it for phases A,B & C. I personally dont use a watch a one days but I think its good to practise a few times with the watch on. I know I have forgotten to start the damn thing a few times!! Its also a little bit of a distraction OR you forget to look at it all...
 

Gamebird

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Joss - oooh did I? jolly good, I hadn't checked - did a bit of begging and hoped to be downgraded! She put me first on the waitlist so I hoped I had a chance.

Cullohill - seek out the CDS person allocated for Weston (Coaching and Development Squad). They'll probably be introduced at the first briefing. We had Philip Surl who was brilliant. He answered all sorts of silly questions, did 3 course walks a day (1 and 2*) on the Wed, Thurs and Fri and showed us lines etc. for every fence (not much good to me with no steering sadly
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). He offered to help with anything from taking boots off before dressage tests to putting SJ practice poles up. He also worked out all the minute markers and willingly shared them with everyone. BE's innovation of the year in my books!
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kerilli

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[ QUOTE ]
I was told at the BE coaching development roadshow that if your course is over 7mins (IIRC) then if you go over your minute markers for the first 4 mins then experience has shown that your horse will hit a 'wall' at about 7 mins no matter how fit it is - making sure you are on or over your minute markers for the first 4 mins helps to avoid this.

[/ QUOTE ]

SC, Sorry, I don't understand this, are they saying that if you are slower than your minute markers for the first 4 minutes your horse will hit a "wall", no matter how fit it is? I don't get this... if I went round a 3* at novice or intermediate speed, say, i'd expect my horse to have more stamina, not less! I know you can't always make up the time if you get behind, that's a different thing though, nothing to do with hitting a "wall". for e.g. Tracy Garside went round Burghley slowly (deliberately, due to control issues, don't blame her at all!) but the horse was fine afaik, didn't hit a "wall" at any time.
Or do they mean that if you go faster than your minute markers your horse will hit a "wall"... which makes a little more sense, but surely depends hugely on the horse... a t.b. might easily manage it at 3/4 speed, a 3/4 would have to be ridden closer to its top cruising speed to make that time.
Hope that makes sense. I'm confused by the statement, that's all.

Cullohill, i'd deffo wear one, but don't let it affect your riding very much if pos. People always generously tell you their minute markers (i've never had to wheel a xc course yet!), and it is easy enough to remember "2 minutes after fence 6", "3 minutes as you go back into the wood" etc etc. Good practise, as people have said, and it might just make the difference!
 

SpottedCat

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By over I meant faster Kerilli, not slower, sorry....

No, apparently it does not depend on the horse, apparently it is pretty much universal, and something the British teams had huge problems with unitl someone figured it out - or so I was told at the coaching day anyway.

Like I say, I've not ridden at the level, so I have to take those who have's word for it. I thought the CDS was one of BEs best ideas in a long time, I learnt a lot, helped me prep for the CCI* that never was no end.
 

AutumnRose

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kerilli, i thought the same but i think sc meant that if you up on the clock then your horse will hit a wall. So if you are going much fster than your minute markers for the 1st 4 mins then your are going to rick yuor horse hitting a wall later on...however fit they are. So you'd not want to be faster than them then if you have petrol left you can try to make up time later.
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I re-read it several times and this makes more sense i think
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SpottedCat

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I suppose so - I was thinking about it in terms of going too fast so going over them by arriving too early!

Either way, you need to be at, or slower than your minute markers for the first 4 mins, not faster than them
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This was stressed as being very, very important to us.
 

SpottedCat

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I thought it was odd that fitness/breed etc made no diff to this, but apparently it doesn't and this is something universal to equines - goodness knows why, I don't think they know, but once they stopped being up on the clock for the first 4 mins it stopped apparently. I did question them on this quite closely! It's wierd isn't it?
 

Cullohill

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thanks this is really helpful and glad i don't have to spend more money - already spent enough today on some lovely boots for him to wear in his stable
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i will make friends with wheel holders and watch lots walk 'their lines' , will get practising starting mine while Bud is prancing about
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kerilli

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[ QUOTE ]
I thought it was odd that fitness/breed etc made no diff to this, but apparently it doesn't and this is something universal to equines - goodness knows why, I don't think they know, but once they stopped being up on the clock for the first 4 mins it stopped apparently. I did question them on this quite closely! It's wierd isn't it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Oooh, i wonder if that's why Cosmopolitan hit a "wall" at the Euros, back god-knows-when, when WFP had to pull him up xc... hmm, will have to fish out the old vid and check how fast he was travelling for the first part of the course. Very very interesting, something i'm really glad to know about because if I ever get my mare to a 3-day she's so quick that it's something i'd have to really guard against.
Thankyou!
(but but but hold on, the horses running in the Grand National are going faster than xc speed, and they don't tend to hit a wall. hmmm. really going to get my thinking cap on about this one!!)
 

Cullohill

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Yes i had heard about CDS so will def keep eye out for them and ask lots of silly questions i'm sure
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i hope the one at Weston is as helpful.... sure they will be it will be a real help. I have my lovely mum / groom
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not sure she'll like that title helping me throughout and OH coming on sat and sun to lend a hand also so think got that side covered!!!
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SpottedCat

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I know nothing about it but I would hazard a guess that it is possibly because they are trained differently from event horses?

How many mins is the National?
 

AutumnRose

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just google it record is held by 1990 winner and is 8min 47.8sec.

Hmmm interesting i guess it must be the training....but that would suggest that the rule wouldn't always apply to full TB's you could get fit enough. Although i guess no eventer would be got national fit.....
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kerilli

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[ QUOTE ]
that would suggest that the rule wouldn't always apply to full TB's you could get fit enough. Although i guess no eventer would be got national fit.....
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[/ QUOTE ]

that's what I thought. both the Grand National and a 4* are about 4 1/2 miles, 4* times is 11 mins ish, GN 8 mins ish upwards (the record holder was on super-fast ground, and of course there is no setting up for the fences!!).

I have no idea how much galloping a GN runner would be doing, but if it was interval training then it prob wouldn't be as different from a 4* eventers as you'd think... except for frequency of galloping sessions obv, most eventers are galloped twice a week.
Very very interesting. Ta!
 

Bounty

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I reckon watching someone with an eventer at National type fitness trying to do their dressage could be interesting!
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I think we need to ask MdM about the prep that National runners get - she knows!
 
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