Been bitten, WWYD ?

[maree t]

I was asked to look after somebodies dog while they went on holiday. The usual sitter had family problems and couldnt take him.
They bought him round to see us and he seemed fine, got on with my dogs and played with the kids.
They said he had bitten one of their kids when he took a toy away and the dog jumped up and grabbed it. They said he was sensitive to noise but we are used to collies so werent too worried.
First day he snapped at OH when he tried to get hold of his collar but we though he was probably just nervous.He then caught my sons arm and marked his elbow but we thought he was playing and made a mistake. Yesterday he flew at my son (16) and was attacking him, I ran over and used my foot to push the dog away, he turned on me and bit at me breaking the skin and leaving extensive bruising on my hand, he then tried to attack my son again.I managed to get in between and fend him off as he was focused on my son. He eventually calmed down and then wanted to play again. we were all shaken up and went out to calm down. I phoned the owners and said we couldnt keep him here anymore and told them what had happened. They said how sorry they were and phoned the usual carers who came and picked him up. The usual carers said how unpredictable he was and that he had bitten all of them at some stage.

The owners are going to come and see us when they get back, I just dont know what to say to them. their kids are younger how can they put them at risk ?

When he was ok he was lovely , laying on his back for a tummy rub etc so what is wrong with him. There was no warning , no growl nothing.

 

[galaxy]

Wow! How totally irresponsible of them! Poor you!

Are these people friends of yours? I think when you speak to them you should tell them what the usual sitter told you and say that they should be more honest about their dog to people. I wouldn't vaguely try to hide how cross I would be in this situation!!!

 

[maree t]

I dont know these folk, they were given my number by a friend, whose dog comes to me daily, who obviously didnt know what this dog was like. Like I said when he was nice he was lovely but has left us all a bit shaken to be honest.

 

[Spook]

I agree with Galaxy, you've been lucky not to have had worse happen, and no doubt they would find it difficult to get a buckshee dog sitter/carer if they were honest...... Sounds like a job for a proffessional boarding kennel and for that they would have to pay and rightly so.

 

[maree t]

Thanks for the kind words, I would think kennels would send him comletely round the bend, poor dog. Now it turns out they have had behaviourists in aswell.
So relieved it didnt turn out worse and that it was me and not my kids.

 

[Dobiegirl]

He does sound like a very unpredictable dog to me and you are right to be angry because the owners knew about his behaviour and didnt pass it on to you. It sounds to me like this dog is too much for the current owners and he has learned he gets what he wants by being aggressive. You say he snapped at your oh when he went to grab his collar which in my eyes would have been the fault of your husband,a lot of sensitive dogs would react this way in fear. The fact that he just didnt bite once but went on a sustained attack is very worrying and with children around it dosnt bear thinking about.

There could be lots of reasons for his behaviour it might be physical as in a brain tumour or indeed behavioural itself, the fact he has been seen by behaviourists and there is no improvement is worrying but then we dont know the quality of the behaviourists.

 

[Superhot]

I'm not sure what breed the dog is. Is it a BC??? I have had something similar occur after I had returned a dog back to the owner, as pre arranged. The next day, the dog bit the 6 year old son and attacked their kitten. The owner took the dog to the vet for help and he said that she had what is known as Rage syndrome. Not something I had ever heard of. Apparently it is known in Cockers and this particular dog was a Goldie, which until this point, had been utterly adorable...the vet said the dog needed to be pts immediately, but my customer rang Goldie rescue and explained fully the circumstances, and they were able to rehome the dog to an experienced, adult only home, on the strict understanding that the dog would be pts if there were any further aggressive incidents.
I have had a bad experience with a Dalmation holidaying with us. He attacked other dogs when they went anywhere near where our dog food is stored. This was a complete shock as we had met the owners and walked their dog with ours, and they had all come back home to see how they all got on, before we agreed to have the dog. When the owners came to collect him, I obviously had to explain how their dog had been food guarding etc, and they said he had been like that for a long time, and had attacked their previous dog badly!!!!! Why can't people be honest???? Needless to say, we had to keep him confined to a crate when not being walked, simply to protect our own dogs.

 

[E13]

Slight tangent here, but is it usual for a rage dog to be PTS? Or if not, what happens (if not in adult only no pet home)?

 

[Superhot]

There is an I interesting article here http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/7_6/features/Rage-Syndrome-In-Dogs_5639-1.html which seems to suggest that pts is the only solution. I think my customer was simply so shocked, as was the vet who knew the dog well, that her lovable 12 month old Goldie could possibly change so suddenly, she couldn't really believe it, so wanted to give her a second chance where no children would get hurt. The new owners had a large house with lots of land and a lake, so doggie heaven. I have not heard how things have gone sadly.

 

[Superhot]

Maree t, did you notice if the dogs eyes changed at all during these attacks by any chance?

 

[maree t]

To be honest the signals we had from him were not very clear. We were too shocked when he attacked to notice, he didnt even growl . We were looking at his teeth !!
I know that we would not keep a dog like that, lovely as he was when he was with me alone I could not live walking on eggshells round him all the time. Straight after literally moments later, he would be wagging and cuddling up to us as if he didnt know what he had done.
Interesting to read about the Rage attack , it does seem to fit.
I would have him PTS if he was mine, it would be heartbreaking but I couldnt live with the consequences.

 

[s4sugar]

To be honest the signals we had from him were not very clear. We were too shocked when he attacked to notice, he didnt even growl . We were looking at his teeth !!
I know that we would not keep a dog like that, lovely as he was when he was with me alone I could not live walking on eggshells round him all the time. Straight after literally moments later, he would be wagging and cuddling up to us as if he didnt know what he had done.
Interesting to read about the Rage attack , it does seem to fit.
I would have him PTS if he was mine, it would be heartbreaking but I couldnt live with the consequences.

This doesn't sound like rage. It sounds more like a dog that has been told off for growling and now gives no warning.
Rage should mean PTS as it is dangerous. This dog may be retrainable if the owners will do the work but somehow I doubt it.
BTW it should be left with a specialist kennels, not a standard boarding kennels. I frequently get iffy dogs in to board and/or assess. Some of the ones I get would be impossible in a domestic situation.
Rather foolish to take in a dog without the means to secure it if something happens.

 

[maree t]

I dont know wether to print that article off and give it to them when they come to see us?
I think they must know what a major problem the have got. I would like to know what the behaviourist had to say.

 

[maree t]

S4sugar
We do have means to secure a dog we have a pen that ours go in during the day but we arent a profesional kennels and have no experience of dealing with a dog like that, it was a long and aggresive attack not a telling off snap.
The foolish part was believing what we were told.

 

[Pinkvboots]

That is really bad of them to leave the dog with you knowing you had children, I agree with you if it were mine I too would pts, a dog that attacks with no warning like growling is very dangerous and unpredictable I dont think you could train that out of him now.

 

[CAYLA]

S4sugar
We do have means to secure a dog we have a pen that ours go in during the day but we arent a profesional kennels and have no experience of dealing with a dog like that, it was a long and aggresive attack not a telling off snap.
The foolish part was believing what we were told.

Do you board and charge or was this a favour? I agree re them knowing you had small kids and still leaving the dog, but if you are a pet sitter and are paid they would have thought you capable. I will take any behaviour here but obs it's nice to get a heads up on what to expect.
I agree re your hubby taking him bu the collar (this could be daunting) from a dogs presepective in a strange environment and by a strange person, if I have a scared dog here (I use a slip lead) far less threatening than such close contact as grabbing the collar? also any reason he attacked your son? any trigger? please dont say he came with toys either? ps an outdoor pen is really no place to count (as placing a dog to secure it) in such cases to put a dog in a home boarding environment (the noise the dog will make will be no ones business) but then I take it this is just for your dogs and you do not usually home board dogs for a living?

 

[CAYLA]

I never answered the question I would keep the dog with me until owner returned and have a serious chat to them about the dog behaviour.

 

[Star_Chaser]

Oh dear hope your all ok. Have to be honest if he were mine he'd either be coming with us on hols etc or pts. Sad to say these days break the skin and its a one way trip with the legal backlash that could be faced

 

[maree t]

Thanks for the pleasant responses. I was asked at short notice to have the dog over half term as a favour as the normal carers had family issues.
I dont leave my dogs in the pen unless it is a nice day and I have to go out but it is secure. I wouldnt have left the dog out there 24 hours a day by choice but neither could I have risked having him back inside the house with my kids. We dont have close neighbours so the noise would be our problem
i contacted the owners to explain what had happened and asked what they wanted me to do and they made other arrangements. The people that usually have him came and revealed that they had all been bitten by him as had the owner and kids.
I will never forget how that felt trying to fend that dog off my son and would never allow him in an enclosed space with either of my kids let alone for another 4 days.
he came with no toys as we have three dogs of our own and know better than that. There was no trigger that we can think of or imagine, there was no warning and we still dont know why. I was in the room at the time and my son is a mature 16 year old having had many dogs around him all his life. Apart from getting me as I was in between them he was totally focused on my son I had to move round in front of my son for what felt like an age to just stay between them, he never went for me at all apart from the start when I think I got in front of him and he got me by mistake.

My OH was just trying to stop him running through a gate into the sheep, he went to hold the collar , the dog snapped at him, we accept that he was scared and didnt react to this , we didnt blame the dog for this either .

We arent doing this for a living just tried to help somebody out and sure wish we hadnt. My hand is swelling more is bl~~dy sore and going black and blue .

 

[Superhot]

I would definitely let the owners know how unprovoked the attacks have been and the shock and upset you and your family have endured. I would also stress that they should take the dog to the vets to have him checked over. His behaviour could be down to any number of reasons, but medical problems should be eliminated I would have thought. You could also print off the article and ask them if they think they are any similarities. The fact that the dog can turn so instantly and then change back to being a playful dog makes me very suspicious. It's s almost like him having a fit then coming out of it and carrying on as normal...This does need to be sorted before he does some serious damage to someone...

 

[Alec Swan]

Maree t, did you notice if the dogs eyes changed at all during these attacks by any chance?

Is that a serious question? Have you ever been attacked by a dog? Obviously not. If you had, then the last thing that you do, is look to see if its eyes have changed! Trust me on this one!

Alec.

 

[Alec Swan]

Thanks for the pleasant responses. I was asked at short notice to have the dog over half term as a favour as the normal carers had family issues.
I dont leave my dogs in the pen unless it is a nice day and I have to go out but it is secure. I wouldnt have left the dog out there 24 hours a day by choice but neither could I have risked having him back inside the house with my kids. We dont have close neighbours so the noise would be our problem
i contacted the owners to explain what had happened and asked what they wanted me to do and they made other arrangements. The people that usually have him came and revealed that they had all been bitten by him as had the owner and kids.
I will never forget how that felt trying to fend that dog off my son and would never allow him in an enclosed space with either of my kids let alone for another 4 days.
he came with no toys as we have three dogs of our own and know better than that. There was no trigger that we can think of or imagine, there was no warning and we still dont know why. I was in the room at the time and my son is a mature 16 year old having had many dogs around him all his life. Apart from getting me as I was in between them he was totally focused on my son I had to move round in front of my son for what felt like an age to just stay between them, he never went for me at all apart from the start when I think I got in front of him and he got me by mistake.

My OH was just trying to stop him running through a gate into the sheep, he went to hold the collar , the dog snapped at him, we accept that he was scared and didnt react to this , we didnt blame the dog for this either .

We arent doing this for a living just tried to help somebody out and sure wish we hadnt. My hand is swelling more is bl~~dy sore and going black and blue .

Regardless of who owned that dog, and assuming that the events are as you've described, I'd have shot the bloody thing.

I once boarded a very strange GSD. Attaching a lead to his check chain was a danger. I 'phoned his owner when they were on their hols, and told them that the dog had a bolt lose. They agreed and with their agreement, I shot the dog. Had that dog nailed a child of mine, I'd have dispensed with the 'phone call.

Alec.

 

[Superhot]

Yes, yes and since it seemed to be a long sustained attack, just a thought that Maree t might have noticed a change in the eyes. It is amazing what you do notice under such circumstances without even realizing, though I fully appreciate the main thing on her mind was to rescue her son.
Maree t have you had any further news from the owner???

 

[s4sugar]

I've seen a few dogs with rage - four different breeds -and their eyes do change during an episode.
If you know you can see it but unless you know about this you wouldn't notice.

The thing in common is no trigger for the attack. Just like flicking a switch and the dog goes from sweet to berserk & back as quickly.

PTS is the only option for a dog with this condition. The dog is fine and unaware of it's problem but no one, or nothing, around is safe.

I know of a springer that attacked a house door!

 

[maree t]

The owners arent back yet. They are coming round tomorrow.
The dog is a border collie. He was so lovely the rest of the time .
There was just no warning he had just got up from having his tummy rubbed.
I have never experienced anything like it , there was no warning and no trigger that we can think of and it was a sustained attack, still a bit shocked by it to be honest.
I could not keep or pass on a dog that was capable of that and I think I will tell the owners that.

 

[Alec Swan]

.......

I could not keep or pass on a dog that was capable of that and I think I will tell the owners that.

More to the point, and in your shoes, I'd point out to the owners that their lack of warning was incredibly irresponsible, and that they are indeed fortunate that they're getting the bloody thing back, whilst still alive.

I remember another dog, a cross bred but remarkably handsome animal. He was huge and his name was Bear. He lived on a chain. I had a shared interest with his owner and went to see him once and was told that he was fine. He greeted me like a long lost friend. Thankfully I was on the end of his chain. I stroked his head, and he seemed pleased of the attention. Then he stopped, he stood still and took on a different stance. I could see what was coming, and as I reversed, he lunged at me. He only had my cuff.

I spoke with his owner who said that he was like that now and then. A fortnight later, despite my warnings and misgivings, the dog took a child by the face. The damage was appalling. Within an hour the dog was dead, and his owner was to my certain knowledge, grief stricken two years later.

I can't explain the change of mindset of the odd dog, but it happens, and like the horse which has only ever bolted once, that should be the time for humane destruction.

Alec.

 

[maree t]

Well the owner came to see me and apologise. He said that the dog has been absolutley fine with the other people. (They dont have kids)
I explained in detail what had happened and he asked if there had been a noise outside that could have startled him . I just said not that we heard or noticed but that surely if that was likely to cause such a prolonged attack then he wasnt safe to have around was he. He said that he will be fine now he is home.
His kids are younger than mine and he admitted that he has bitten them, no idea if it was like what happened with my son but i just couldnt relax with him around.
Nothing more that I can say to them , I dont think they want to know, just burying their heads in the sand.

 

[Dobiegirl]

Thats outrageous, he is playing roulette with his children, cant believe he is still in denial and making excuses.

 

[Superhot]

I feel for you Maree t, it must have been a very difficult conversation to have. Do you happen to know your local dog warden? Is it possible to have a quiet word with them and see what they advise? I would also let the vet know, for his/her own sake.
My friend bred a litter of Weimeraners and kept a pup. The pup occasionally nipped passing cyclists and joggers. Someone reported the pup, now about 8 months old, and the local bobby came to warn my friend that a complaint had been made. Sadly, the pup bit the bobby as he walked towards the house, and he insisted the pup be pts or he would get a destruction order through the courts...

 

[maree t]

I had to take one of my dogs to the vet for a problem today which gave me a chance to have a chat with him (been my vet for 25 years ).
He just kept shaking his head , when I had finished he said that it was a dangerous dog and should be pts. He said no ifs and buts , wether it was rage syndrome or not it was obviously dangerous and should be reported .
I dont know what else can do without reporting them to the police as it is an offence to keep a dangerous dog. The normal pet sitters are unlikely to report what the dog has done to them are they.
Really dont know know what to do next, I am unlikely to come across him again but how am I going to feel if he attacks somebody else ?
I would hate to be made to pts one of mine but would know that I would be able to see the difference between a snap and an attack like that.