BEF Futurity Report and Frustrations!

[lottiepony]

So I posted for peoples thoughts on the Futurity shows and decided that I would take my boy along to the one at Writtle.

I've never been to the futurity before so I took advantage of the fact they were live streaming them this year so felt a bit better knowing what to expect! Anyway up we rocked, only the second outing for my youngster and I was very pleased with his behaviour only 2 real moments where it all got a little bit too exciting but he soon settled again after so pleased with him. Following advice from a friend I put him in the endurance category, he's PBA (by the late H Tobago) although looks the part for eventing too. Having read all the fact sheets where it says that if the panel think they are in the wrong section they can be changed I thought ok I'll just ask they're opinion on the day. So when it came to being in the arena I explained that I was unsure of the category but was told he would have to be judged under endurance due to his sires eligibility - will come back to this bit. Was thrilled for him to get a higher first premium with some fantastic comments including one saying he would easily event as well. Being useless and only being me and my friend we failed to get any good photos lol thankfully the pro got some so have ordered a couple.

So now onto what will now be a slight rant.
I admit that I probably didn't read fully the sire eligibility criteria but going on the basis that H Tobago's progeny have been in the various categories didn't think there was an issue. No, I was wrong the rule regarding arab/PBA/anglos stallions has been changed this year. Despite the fact H Tobago has sired a foal who achieved an elite score in the eventing section he is now no longer able to have youngstock in that category - where is the logic?!? Before the rule allowed the fact if they had sired youngstock that had achieved certain levels in the futurity but now it's only stallions on the AHS Premium Performance Scheme which with a quick google you will find extremely limiting. H Tobago's record speaks for itself plus the fact he is a popular choice now as a sports horse stallion begs the question as to what they are actually trying to achieve with the series. Not to mention the fact that there is now no way he can get onto the list. So frustrated by it and feel it's such a crying shame for the stallion. Sadly for me it means I probably won't be returning next year as this year he was described as big for an endurance horse and I'm pretty sure he will fit in a bit more growing in a year - he's currently 16hh. So even though my horse was bred for eventing all he can be entered under is endurance??!! Same for his full sister who was born this year - repeat breeding as the breeder was so pleased with the previous result!! Oh and I have emailed British Breeding saying how disappointing it is.

For those interested rule from 2015:
- Is an Arab, Anglo Arab or part bred Arab which is enrolled in the UK Arab Horse Society Premium Performance Scheme or is an Advanced Endurance horse or has sired at least 2 advanced Endurance horses and/or sired at least 1 progeny which has attained a Futurity premium of higher first or above and 2 further progeny which have attained a Futurity first premium or above.

Rule for 2016
- Is an Arab, Anglo Arab or part bred Arab which is enrolled in the UK Arab Horse Society
Premium Performance Scheme. Has passed the NaSTA Performance Test.

Apologies for the rant and of course the necessary pic of the boy sorry it's just a rubbish phone one!

 

[PorkChop]

Can't help with the technical questions, but just wanted to say well done and what a lovely stamp of a horse he is

 

[honetpot]

You are not the only one who confused.
I have only recently started breeding and looked into BEF, I have a BEF diploma mare on breeding loan, who has completely unknown breeding and is a 14hands pony, but throws large stock and all her progeny are over 16hands.
I thought BEF was to promote and market the breeding of good quality animals but to me they seem only interested in restricting the gene pool and restricting stallion choice.
We often breed for X but end up with Y and we have to work with Y's attributes to produce a horse that is happy in its work and more importantly ends up in the right home, any hope of covering costs is the last thing you think about.
There are so many ways to show horses, and handsome is as handsome does, so it could be extremely well bred and ride like a plank, and look like a donkey, I have decided not to worry myself about it. When they get to three they will be backed and produced for what I think they will be good at. This way I know they get the most suitable home, saves trailing them miles to be graded and I get the best price possible.

 

[GemG]

You are not the only one who confused.
I have only recently started breeding and looked into BEF, I have a BEF diploma mare on breeding loan, who has completely unknown breeding and is a 14hands pony, but throws large stock and all her progeny are over 16hands.
I thought BEF was to promote and market the breeding of good quality animals but to me they seem only interested in restricting the gene pool and restricting stallion choice.
We often breed for X but end up with Y and we have to work with Y's attributes to produce a horse that is happy in its work and more importantly ends up in the right home, any hope of covering costs is the last thing you think about.
There are so many ways to show horses, and handsome is as handsome does, so it could be extremely well bred and ride like a plank, and look like a donkey, I have decided not to worry myself about it. When they get to three they will be backed and produced for what I think they will be good at. This way I know they get the most suitable home, saves trailing them miles to be graded and I get the best price possible.

Totally agree.

 

[popsdosh]

Gave up on the futurity for my lot after one go as to be honest I questioned if the assessors were looking at the same foal as me.
Plus I cannot for love of me work out why on average foals get higher marks than older horses even though those taking two and three yos are likely to be only taking the best .

 

[Tetrarch 1911]

I've been following the threads about the futurity with interest, as I'm a tad old-fashioned and like to see how my youngsters turn out and see where their talents lie. I had thought about it, but now I think it's a bit of a waste of time and money. I completely agree with Honetpot - and will now look towards breed societies etc and let my youngstock's talents take them forward, whether it is eventing or as someone's much-loved happy hacker. I breed the best I can, and do my best for my babies.

By the way, Lottiepony, that's a very nice youngster. I have my bigger TB booked to the late H Tobago for 2017. What is the breeding of your boy's dam? He looks as though he has some growing to do yet!

 

[lottiepony]

Couldn't agree more. The world is our oyster so we will see what 'job' suits him when the time comes. I entered more just to help showcase H Tobago really especially now as he is no longer here and just a good experience for him to get out and see the world.

I've been following the threads about the futurity with interest, as I'm a tad old-fashioned and like to see how my youngsters turn out and see where their talents lie. I had thought about it, but now I think it's a bit of a waste of time and money. I completely agree with Honetpot - and will now look towards breed societies etc and let my youngstock's talents take them forward, whether it is eventing or as someone's much-loved happy hacker. I breed the best I can, and do my best for my babies.

By the way, Lottiepony, that's a very nice youngster. I have my bigger TB booked to the late H Tobago for 2017. What is the breeding of your boy's dam? He looks as though he has some growing to do yet!

Thank you I'm totally smitten with him lol! I only bought him in April this year, feel totally amazed that I managed to get him to be honest and can't help but be excited about his future.
He's out of Future Illicit Affair - The Outlaw x Brianston Zipper xx - one of Future Sport Horses mares http://futuresporthorses.co.uk/mares/future-illicit-affair/ My boys full sister was foaled this year and the breeder is again thrilled with the result.

 

[Asha]

ive been a big fan of the BEF, but this new rule doesn't make any sense to me. How disappointing.

I read a comment on this forum which made so much sense, think it was Alec Swan ( forgive me if I'm wrong ). you cant breed eventers, you find them.

It summed up breeding eventers for me.

Lovely youngster btw, and congratulations on your higher first

 

[sywell]

ive been a big fan of the BEF, but this new rule doesn't make any sense to me. How disappointing.

I read a comment on this forum which made so much sense, think it was Alec Swan ( forgive me if I'm wrong ). you cant breed eventers, you find them.

It summed up breeding eventers for me.

Lovely youngster btw, and congratulations on your higher first

It is much cheaper to buy them than breed them. I do not agree that you cannot breed them see Dr Mark's work on genetic evaluation.

 

[lottiepony]

Just as an update I wrote to H&H and they've published my letter!! Response is quite amusing. If anyone fancies writing in as well to put across comments feel free My boy is also mentioned later on as it was in the top 3 in his section.

 

[ester]

Can you suggest what the response was for those of us who don't get the mag?

 

[lottiepony]

My letter was along the lines of my original post - that it is a shame a stallion that has produced high scoring progeny across the disciplines is now no longer eligible due to a rule change this year and that many people feel frustrated with the series. The response from a BEF Futurity spokesperson was that basically the grading rule was bought into force in 2012 and that there has been 'no major recent tightening, just clarification on it's intention' which I feel somewhat untrue if a stallion was eligible for everything one year then just endurance the next. Oh and in the endurance section there is no sire criteria at all?!?

I admit that I am new to all this so still learning along the way - hence my wrong assumption about my boy being able to do any category due to previous results but quick question but what is the difference between graded/approved/licensed stallions? As the the BEF rules list all 3 for certain sires (not arabs mind you) link to rules here:
http://www.bef.co.uk/repository/EquineDevelopment/Factsheet_5.pdf

 

[ihatework]

I'm going to stick my neck out here and say I agree with the BEF stance.
One of the underlying fundamentals is to improve breeding stock by using approved sires (I'd go further to say that down the line id like to see similar criteria applied to the dam).

H Tobago therefore falls outside of the requirement. He is/was a show stallion that actually at present has little to prove himself as a sports sire. There will be plenty of other stallions that will also fall into that category.
That doesn't mean they are automatically 'bad' stallions or have no value in the gene pool of performance horses but at some stage a line has to be made - and that will naturally mean some don't make it.

OP your youngster looks lovely. A bit of paper isn't going to change what you have so go out and enjoy and I look forwards to seeing H Tobago babies out eventing.

 

[lottiepony]

ihatework - it is good to get the balance of both sides. I understand the rules are there for a reason and it is an ongoing series with the idea to improve standards. Interesting though that at the beginning of the report in this weeks issue it starts saying how numbers are down and having seen fellow posters views I can see why many do not enter.

My main gripe is the fact that it had previously been allowed for results from progeny entered to count (under the rule regarding arabs) and this must of been in place since 2012 until 2016, I managed to find the rules for 2015 so it did definitely change this year. In regards to the Arab side of things if you look up the list of Premium stallions it is not exactly extensive and I imagine there are a few that are no longer available, I think the current list contains just 24 horses (thats including pure breds, part and anglos)

I'm very much looking forward to finding my boys forte as who knows what will be his greatest strength, will be a fun journey and I can't wait to be honest.

Hopefully once more of Tobago's progeny come of age he will be able to be graded status through that route.

 

[Orangehorse]

I read the report and thought I had seen something about it somewhere. Here!

I thought the breeding of the first placed Endurance foal was interesting, as his great grandsire was an American Saddlebred. Not many of those in the pedigree of British horses. Although the Americans say they are great horses, with more size, very trainable and althletic.

OP, I love your horse, and well done for being so highly placed.

 

[honetpot]

I went to view some youngsters at the weekend, most of them had been to BEF and graded well.
Right, I know we are all looking for good confirmation and movement but when you look of the animals being graded its very much a limited gene pool and I wonder how many of these animals go on either to compete at a high level or even make a good easily trainable riding horse. I was once talking to a dealer who was importing from Germany, he said they had good horses because the poor ones they eat!
I think it would be really interesting to see how graded animals perform, and from a breeder point of view I far more interested in breeding from a stallion that passes on trainability, something a top professional riders look for when buying a young horse.
Looking at the world stallion ranking UK breeding is way behind,
http://www.wbfsh.org/GB/Rankings/WBFSH rankings.aspx
Some stallions have points from multiple offspring, and may have covered a large amount of mares which a UK stallion may not have had an opportunity to do, but if results of progeny graded were published based on performance it would still be a better indicator, than a foal being chased round an indoor school.
So where do you invest your £1000 plus in breeding a foal? Its madness.

 

[cundlegreen]

I went to view some youngsters at the weekend, most of them had been to BEF and graded well.
Right, I know we are all looking for good confirmation and movement but when you look of the animals being graded its very much a limited gene pool and I wonder how many of these animals go on either to compete at a high level or even make a good easily trainable riding horse. I was once talking to a dealer who was importing from Germany, he said they had good horses because the poor ones they eat!
I think it would be really interesting to see how graded animals perform, and from a breeder point of view I far more interested in breeding from a stallion that passes on trainability, something a top professional riders look for when buying a young horse.
Looking at the world stallion ranking UK breeding is way behind,
http://www.wbfsh.org/GB/Rankings/WBFSH rankings.aspx
Some stallions have points from multiple offspring, and may have covered a large amount of mares which a UK stallion may not have had an opportunity to do, but if results of progeny graded were published based on performance it would still be a better indicator, than a foal being chased round an indoor school.
So where do you invest your £1000 plus in breeding a foal? Its madness.

I also went to the same Futurity as Lottiepony, and have corresponded with her on FB. Re the graded stallions only issue, I do agree with that, and my stallion was in the same position as H Tobago, as his breed society (WPCS), only licensed stallions. I made the decision happily, to have him graded with the SPSS, who were the only approved society that I could use. This is the same for all native breeds, which does limit the gene pool, but then, native breeds which are so important in the breeding of good all rounders, all share the policy of only licensing, not grading. This is very short sighted IMO. My stallion got lifetime grading based on the fact he scored "10's" for rideability, temperamnt and jumping ability. it was hard work, in that these breed societies do not recognize showing results of any kind, only affiliated results in BD, BS, and BE.
I had a little filly foal at the futurity that had to show by herself, as her dam had been weaned early to enable her to get back eventing. This filly who obviously looked very bum high compared to the foals that were on their mothers, was marked down heavily for this, so only got a second premium, despite the fact that her manners were perfect, in fact, i had several other owners approach me to say they wished their foals were as well behaved! I saw several foals with really bad manners get High First premiums. To me as a breeder, temperament is everything, closely followed by soundness. If well bred and well conformed foals with bad temperaments, are rewarded as such, it sends the wrong message as to what we are trying to breed in this country. Not everybody is a "pro" and good amateur horses are worth their weight in gold.

 

[popsdosh]

I was once talking to a dealer who was importing from Germany, he said they had good horses because the poor ones they eat!
.

He forgot to add or send to GB where people are stupid enough to buy them.

 

[Maesfen]

The Futurity is becoming (or has become) very much a closed shop and is now not doing what it was supposed to which is to encourage and teach British breeders to use the best stock available for their mares. How can it when it has removed all Native breeds which in many cases are the best choice for both the mare and the ultimate use of the progeny? Many Native breeders don't see the point or can afford to grade their ponies just so a very few might make it to a Futurity; they let their stallion and his progeny do their talking for them; quite rightly IMO. The BEF should not have changed the stallion eligibility from the very beginning as that was what encouraged people to enter, the fact that any youngster was eligible and their marks awarded as regards quality or lack of would speak for themselves.
I watched several of the livestreams and some of the awards were dire let alone the remarks by the evaluators who seemed to have little idea of the stages of youngster growth. Very few stood out as Elites, some were downright dire and should have been left in the field but they were still given premiums; it seemed they wouldn't say anything against any animal at all; where is that teaching people what they need to learn?

PS: childishly, I hope the Tobagos and other youngsters from ungraded stalliions rub their noses in it; some of them are doing very well already in all disciplines.

ETA: I saw OP's boy; he was stunning, a real credit to both yourself and the breeder; lovely type.

 

[honetpot]

The Futurity is becoming (or has become) very much a closed shop and is now not doing what it was supposed to which is to encourage and teach British breeders to use the best stock available for their mares. How can it when it has removed all Native breeds which in many cases are the best choice for both the mare and the ultimate use of the progeny? Many Native breeders don't see the point or can afford to grade their ponies just so a very few might make it to a Futurity; they let their stallion and his progeny do their talking for them; quite rightly IMO. The BEF should not have changed the stallion eligibility from the very beginning as that was what encouraged people to enter, the fact that any youngster was eligible and their marks awarded as regards quality or lack of would speak for themselves.
I watched several of the livestreams and some of the awards were dire let alone the remarks by the evaluators who seemed to have little idea of the stages of youngster growth. Very few stood out as Elites, some were downright dire and should have been left in the field but they were still given premiums; it seemed they wouldn't say anything against any animal at all; where is that teaching people what they need to learn?

PS: childishly, I hope the Tobagos and other youngsters from ungraded stalliions rub their noses in it; some of them are doing very well already in all disciplines.

ETA: I saw OP's boy; he was stunning, a real credit to both yourself and the breeder; lovely type.

This in spades

 

[sywell]

I am biased as all the foals I took to the futurity got first premiums. I think there is a judge selection problem as we have very few sports horse judges. If you look at the VIT website or the WBFSH website and see the full version of Linear Profiling in the Warmblood Horse by Kathrin Stock when this is combined with accurate competition results and full breeding history with progeny competition results you will see why the Germans produce good competition horses can you imagine our top eventers buying warmbloods 25 years ago. The new passport that DEFRA wish to produce will not even show breeding history as the new database will not be required by DEFRA to show breeding. I think people might put forward rules that stallion owners should not be in the ring with the progeny of mares they have bred or when they know they have a commercial relationship with the foal owner or presenter. The comment about the Germans selling us their rubbish is nonsense it is dealers buying cheap horse some from slaughterers and selling them to people lacking judgement. There was a case some years ago when an Irish dealer through the passports for the horses he had bought in the dustbin and when asked why he said he cannot sell warmbloods in Ireland but he can sell horses of unknown breeding. Look at the Hanoverian Meister with a Hanoverian passport who turned up eventing at the top level as an Irish horse of unknown breeding(vets ID and Pedigree are available) and was bred in East Anglia.

 

[Maesfen]

There is a definite judge problem in that they don't mark down hard enough on stock that is genuinely badly conformed and there is definitely a lack of integrity when it comes to judging stock you either know or have had some involvement with but by the same token, the owners should not put judges in that position either. If you know or have had dealings with the judge, no matter how long ago, then you don't enter under them; simples.

I still say they should not know the breeding until after the marks are awarded; they should judge the animal in front of them on the day, not what they expect it to be from the parentage and there should be no 'sections' as such; all animals judged on their merits and age then a category suggested to the owners.

As to the new DEFRA rules, such a backward step to not show the breeding; it will make us the laughing stock once again when we can't prove the champions are British bred.

 

[lottiepony]

The Futurity is becoming (or has become) very much a closed shop and is now not doing what it was supposed to which is to encourage and teach British breeders to use the best stock available for their mares. How can it when it has removed all Native breeds which in many cases are the best choice for both the mare and the ultimate use of the progeny? Many Native breeders don't see the point or can afford to grade their ponies just so a very few might make it to a Futurity; they let their stallion and his progeny do their talking for them; quite rightly IMO. The BEF should not have changed the stallion eligibility from the very beginning as that was what encouraged people to enter, the fact that any youngster was eligible and their marks awarded as regards quality or lack of would speak for themselves.
I watched several of the livestreams and some of the awards were dire let alone the remarks by the evaluators who seemed to have little idea of the stages of youngster growth. Very few stood out as Elites, some were downright dire and should have been left in the field but they were still given premiums; it seemed they wouldn't say anything against any animal at all; where is that teaching people what they need to learn?

PS: childishly, I hope the Tobagos and other youngsters from ungraded stalliions rub their noses in it; some of them are doing very well already in all disciplines.

ETA: I saw OP's boy; he was stunning, a real credit to both yourself and the breeder; lovely type.

Well said!!

Thank you Maesfen I am of course totally bias lol!

I really am looking forward to getting him under saddle. All going to plan next year will be to pop him in the in-hand sports horse classes which we will be able to do with an over-stamp on his passport from SHB (GB) I'm looking forward to seeing what sort of feedback we will get - that would be the icing on the cake if we did well, definitely a bit of face rubbing!! That and we will also be looking at the part bred arab classes.

 

[honetpot]

Looking at blood lines is always complicated, in researching a mare I was thinking of buying I came across this article,
http://www.barnmice.com/profiles/blogs/even-mark-todd-can-be-led-2
I knew there was a lot of TB blood in warmbloods but its amazing how much there is, the studbooks seem to be able to absorb them.
Through the old HIS, which I can remember the stallion turning up in a trailer, and covering in the yard, the problem was there was no recording of the mating, so for a lot of the offspring we have no idea what they went on to do. It did give an opportunity for a breeder to improve the quality of their stock and was inclusive. The mare that I saw covered in the yard produced a cracking foal that went on to be a nice ridden animal.
The trouble with the BEF its seems to becoming more exclusive, a bit of a closed shop where the bigger breeders get their animals rubberstamped . A lot of UK equines are based on out native breeds and outcrosses, which mature later and as babes are not the smooth sleek smaller version of their adult self, so they are bound not to do so well against mini-me's as youngsters. My BEF diploma mare is a non descript looking 14 hand connie cross, she produces 16.2 sports horses that grade well put to the right stallion, is not the opposite possible with a stallion of unknown breeding or just something not eligible by BEF?
The BEF by being exclusive is actually going to smother itself, if you use a recognised stallion there are so many stud books to register with that actually give you more opportunity to display your stock if you wish.

 

[sywell]

I think on balance see the breeding in the entry for for the judge is quite useful. As an organiser not a judge I look at a progeny and the handler and i know in most cases the sire and dam. If you are looking as a breeding judge you must want to see that the stallion is stamping his progeny. With a linear profile the judge has less chance to make unbalanced opinions. In my past as a competition organiser(not horses) we had several judges and their scores were averaged and any that were plus or minus out side the average they were corrected into the average this worked well and you can do a second average. I appreciate with dressage the judges are seeing different angels.

 

[sywell]

Looking at blood lines is always complicated, in researching a mare I was thinking of buying I came across this article,
http://www.barnmice.com/profiles/blogs/even-mark-todd-can-be-led-2
I knew there was a lot of TB blood in warmbloods but its amazing how much there is, the studbooks seem to be able to absorb them.
Through the old HIS, which I can remember the stallion turning up in a trailer, and covering in the yard, the problem was there was no recording of the mating, so for a lot of the offspring we have no idea what they went on to do. It did give an opportunity for a breeder to improve the quality of their stock and was inclusive. The mare that I saw covered in the yard produced a cracking foal that went on to be a nice ridden animal.
The trouble with the BEF its seems to becoming more exclusive, a bit of a closed shop where the bigger breeders get their animals rubberstamped . A lot of UK equines are based on out native breeds and outcrosses, which mature later and as babes are not the smooth sleek smaller version of their adult self, so they are bound not to do so well against mini-me's as youngsters. My BEF diploma mare is a non descript looking 14 hand connie cross, she produces 16.2 sports horses that grade well put to the right stallion, is not the opposite possible with a stallion of unknown breeding or just something not eligible by BEF?
The BEF by being exclusive is actually going to smother itself, if you use a recognised stallion there are so many stud books to register with that actually give you more opportunity to display your stock if you wish.

The studbooks have appreciated the importance of licensing a stallion on its competition record and its progeny's performance even if it did badly at its performance test. The KWPN have used the breeding history of a horses to eradicate heritable transmitted diseases but I accept that you must not have a closed shop that benifits breeders who go on to the Equine Pathway.

 

[Violet]

Look at the Hanoverian Meister with a Hanoverian passport who turned up eventing at the top level as an Irish horse of unknown breeding(vets ID and Pedigree are available) and was bred in East Anglia.

Eventing Ireland has got Meister (Red Baron) with his correct breeding; http://www.eventingireland.com/Horses.aspx?context=HorseResult&Id=3772&bool=False
and British Eventing has now also changed it from unknown x unknown to Medoc x Lucinda; http://www.britisheventing.com/asp-net/events/results.aspx?horseid=62543
So Medoc (Hanoverian) finally recognised as an eventing stallion!!!