Being polite....

CorvusCorax

CorvusCorax

Deary me...
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How do you politely suggest to some relative newbies that breeding their bitch (who has the worst case of dog-aggression/fixation I have seen, does not react to a prong collar or electric collar - sometimes used in unison - or training from three veteran forces dog trainers) is a bad idea?

I say this as the owner of a dog-aggressive male, who has vastly improved, but who will not be procreating because I couldn't have it on my conscience.
They are a lovely couple but I have seen first-hand how sharpness passes down the generations on a number of occasions.

A lot of people want to say something to them, but how? Bless them, they have been bitten by the GSD bug and they are really keen, we welcome newcomers with open arms, but breeding from this bitch (who got her aggression though her dam, a champion
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) would be lunacy and no one wants to offend them or make them think we are a bunch of snobs!

Any ideas?
 
I'm afraid polite doesn't come into it. Aggression is aggression. It may be dogs now but could be people next time. Tell them NO!
 
Thanks for your input guys, it seems so much easier written down in black and white (as you may have seen my anti-breeing rants before
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)

In fairness to them she is a family dog and great with their children and they do not let her run amok, I think it is a protective thing from her point of view, but I see your point, if a child got in the way of her and another dog it could be trouble.

I have a horrible feeling that someone has told her the fairytale that breeding her would settle her down.
We used to have a bitch that was nowhere near as bad, but not GREAT with other dogs, she went back to her breeder on breeder's terms and was mated to a very sharp dog (another champion, who gives out these prize cards?!) and the puppies were all sharp.
She was not maternal in the slightest and was glad to be rid of them - it did not change her one jot.

They are asking people for recommendations for dogs but not from me personally, if they did then I would have an easy 'route in' to the conversation, I'm wondering how to broach it.

Another lady has suggested they keep their options open and go to see 'X''s puppies when they whelp next week. Even then, would that be safe? A puppy in the house?!

I feel bad judging the dog because people said my dog would never improve, but he has come on in leaps and bounds - I still wouldn't breed from him though.
 
Have you tried the usual talk about the risks involved with pregnancies, that puppies are not selling as they used to and that rescues are over crowded? And the cost, never forget the cost.

Talk about how difficult and what a responsibility it is for a breeder to evaluate if a dog is good enough to breed or not.
See if you can find a book or article on the internet about inherited dog temperament.
Tell them about the agony of finding good homes (f.ex. people calling saying strange things http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/sh...rue#Post4514938 ).
Tell them about me, I waited 19 years to get a bitch that I thought was good enough to breed and two of those I didn't breed was Swedish Champions, because I think both looks, temperament, merits (for me that is not only official merits without also how easy they are to own in every day normal life) and health checks matters.
Ask about how much they know about dogs and how much support they can offer their future puppy buyers with their current knowledge if the buyer have problems with their puppy?
I presume their dog owning haven't been a smooth ride due to their bitch behaviour, what if one, two or more buyers says they can't handle their dog due to that it has inherited that behaviour and want them to take it back, when the puppies are between let's say 6 months to 1 year old? Can they handle taking them back, are they capable of taking them back?



That is what I can come and think of without thinking to long about it and if you need to be blunt, ask if anybody ever have met their dog with another dog and after that said "Now I really want a dog of that breed", without seeming to be a person involved in illegal dog fighting?!

{{{Hugs}}} for your agony of how to tell them.
 
Maybe in a round about sort of a way drop into the conversation that aggressive dogs will always have aggressive tendencies and how, although your dog has improved you cannot trust him completely. If they are responsible dog owners they must be able to see that they could be potentially passing this problem on to several future owners.
I am sure they are nice people but they appear to be somewhat blinkered as far as their dog is concerned.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for your input guys, it seems so much easier written down in black and white (as you may have seen my anti-breeding rants before
tongue.gif
)

In fairness to them she is a family dog and great with their children and they do not let her run amok, I think it is a protective thing from her point of view, but I see your point, if a child got in the way of her and another dog it could be trouble.

I have a horrible feeling that someone has told her the fairytale that breeding her would settle her down.
We used to have a bitch that was nowhere near as bad, but not GREAT with other dogs, she went back to her breeder on breeder's terms and was mated to a very sharp dog (another champion, who gives out these prize cards?!) and the puppies were all sharp.
She was not maternal in the slightest and was glad to be rid of them - it did not change her one jot.

They are asking people for recommendations for dogs but not from me personally, if they did then I would have an easy 'route in' to the conversation, I'm wondering how to broach it.

Another lady has suggested they keep their options open and go to see 'X''s puppies when they whelp next week. Even then, would that be safe? A puppy in the house?!

I feel bad judging the dog because people said my dog would never improve, but he has come on in leaps and bounds - I still wouldn't breed from him though.

[/ QUOTE ]


What do you mean fairytale about bitches becoming calmer after having puppies? It's true, I've met an owner with a bitch like that!































It worked from about three weeks before delivery and until about one week after the puppies birth and then her activity-level demand went back to how it used to be again!

About your dog improving and about their dog being good at home and being manageable for them, how about if someone else would have bought them? Someone thinking no further than "Oh that puppy is cute", where would it have ended then most likely?
It ended well in your cases but still.
 
You could always use the fact that you will not be breeding from boy dog as an opener... about how great he is and he's improved so much but you could never consider breeding from him due to the possibility of passing such problems on, then gently steer the conversation to their dog...

I think that if you tell them about the problems you have had then you will be viewed as empathising with them rather than 'telling' them what to do.
 
Thanks again folks, a lot of food for thought there.

FLH - re the current puppy market - another problem is that they see that other people's puppies are getting snapped up right away...but mostly by people from the same circle, who know the breeding inside out, we've all known each other for donkeys years.
So they see other people breeding great animals who are going to knowledgeable homes and maybe think that will happen to them.
Re my boy (and their girl!) ending well, we were offered him for a reason, mainly his conformation wasn't what it could have been, I have no doubt that had he gone somewhere else where people were not prepared to put work into him, he would not have the life he has now, or indeed a life at all, much as I love him, he has been really hard work.
I can't imagine any of his littermates will be bred from either.
Imagining that happening to puppies, up to eight or nine times over is hard!!!

H&H and Mattilda, I have mentioned to them how bad my boy used to be, as I really felt for them with their female the way she was and told them in a 'he used to be like that, look at him now, it can be done, keep with it' kind of way and they couldn't believe it - I never mentioned not breeding from him (I thought that went without saying!!!!) but that is another good idea and probably the easiest way in.
 
I sympathise as it is a difficult one. I have had people accusing me of being a dog snob when I suggested they didn't breed from their very nervous bitch. I think using Bodo as an example is the way to go with these folks. Perhaps just say to them that much as you would love to use him you just aren't prepared to risk him passing the problem on. Would their bitch pass a BH test or similar, another way would be to perhaps say they really should put her through that or some other temperament assessment and not breed from her unless she is of a satisfactory standard, and hope she fails
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Cheers MM. She wouldn't pass the BH at this point but then again, I thought that about Bodo, but now he has just about got the 'long down' with distractions (faints)...they were also asking about needing DNA/hips/elbows to do a survey or show at one of the UK siegers, so I don't know if they are thinking of that for her or if they buy something?!

She isn't that well put together but I wouldn't care if she was the most perfect example of the breed I had ever seen...in fairness to them they are asking loads of questions so at least one of us should be able to tackle it tactfully!
 
Tell them puppies sell, but they also grow up, and need back up when they are not so cute anymore, so do they have the room for say three 1yr old shepherds and how will their bitch take to her kids moving back at home, with some possible behavioural problems in tow.
and will they find it so easy ro rehouse adult dogs.
give them a shocker of the bill for out of hours complications.
 
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