BHS 'Think Before You Breed' Campaign

[LauraBR]

Just noticed on Facebook that the BHS 'Drawing the Line on Indiscriminate Breeding' Campaign now has a dedicated Just Giving page so thought I'd share the link in case anyone wanted to support it - http://www.justgiving.com/drawingthelinebhs

For those who aren't aware of it, it's a campaign hoping to raise funds needed to try and promote responsible breeding, and tackle some of the issues associated with over-production, and the production of unsuitable animals. Over the last year or so the BHS has sought donations of equestrian fine art, experience days, and other items from celebrities, artists, and equestrian businesses which will be auctioned this October for the campaign.

I think it is a wonderful cause very deserving of support- so much so that I have donated one of my own oil paintings to it! Be great to see it raise lots of money so if you can support it please do.

If you are on Facebook you can check out all the auction donations and campaign news on the Drawing the Line page- http://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/pages/Drawing-The-Line/139900806040573?ref=ts

 

[Puppy]

*bumped*

Because it's such good cause

 

[Kokopelli]

This is such a good cause! I know someone who thought it was a good idea to breed off a mare who was known to have seizures and the vet said it may be hereditary!

I know another person who had this physco mare who just wasn't nice at all (not due to bad handling) she was just not right and they bred off her, needless to say her foal is pretty much unrideable!

It would be so nice to see something done about all this irresponsible breeding. Thanks for posting

 

[Storminateacup]

The biggest producers of unwanted horses are racehorses breeders, and yet one might say that their breeding is NOT indiscriminate.
They are all very well bred after all,and they sell well initially.

Yet many people really want a "Heinz 57" a hairy cob, or a bit of a mixture like my new horse, IDx Cob. Sadly these are often the types produced by indiscriminate breeding. ie some well bred old ISH mare and an unregistered cob.
Is the problem of unwanted horses really being addressed in this campaign, I wonder?
(cat amongst pidgeons etc - me thinks)

 

[LauraBR]

My understanding is that it is nothing to do with preventing cross breeding or the production of useful Heinz 57s- it is about tackling the HUGE overproduction problems we have and educating people about the importance of breeding conformationally sound, healthy horses who can have a useful life. Just the other day on here I read a thread about a proposed cull of ponies on Dartmoor- that's the kind of situation this campaign is aiming to prevent happening in the first place, not to mention countless other examples.

I quite agree re the racehorse situation, I am not directly involved with the campaign though so have no idea if it is part of it's remit. There is more info on the BHS website- http://www.bhs.org.uk/Horse_Care/Campaigns/Responsible_Breeding.aspx and I am sure if you were to contact the BHS they would be pleased to talk you through your concerns and the full aims of the project.

 

[guido16]

I back this 200%

There are far to many folks out there that think just because they have a mare that they love, they HAVE to breed from it. Pointless!

I do however agree ref the racehorse industry.
I think people should need a licence to breed.

 

[letrec_fan]

100% Agree, a great cause.

 

[Sugarplum Furry]

Um, probably a numpty question, but when the BHS say " we have lots of ideas and valuable long-term projects planned" does anyone know what they actually are?

 

[Quadro]

I cannot agree more, people seem to think a great way to get a cheap horse is to breed, its just plain ignorance so this is a great campaign.
Well done to you LauraBR for donating a painting

 

[bryngelenponies]

I back this 100%. I've known too many people who've bred from psycho mares and have simply reproduced equally mentally unstable foals. I think that far too many people don't consider temperament or least of all conformation in order to make a quick buck. Having looked at the stallions online website it's unbelievable that some of these people put some of their stallions to stud, when they are less than ordinary and have done nothing in their own careers. Excellent idea for a campaign- IF it successfully combats this problem.

 

[Storminateacup]

I think there is definitely a gap in the market and more than anything producers need to know what prospective horse owners want, and breed them. Close that gap and there may not be so much indiscriminant breeding . Most people only have a limited choice when seeking a cheap horse, an ex race horse, an ill bred native (dartmoors etc) or a temperamental imported warmblood. ( there are huge numbers of very unsuitable warmbloods brought into the country every year - I ve known more than a few friends buy them)
Sorry I am a natural skeptic. I d like to see where this campaign is really going and who it is going to target specifically, before I commit any of my funds.

 

[not_with_it]

I think that some stallion owners are to blame too. They have unproven stallions standing at stud with a low stud fee, therefore attracting the less than average mare as the owner doesnt want to pay a huge amount.

Im all for registering all stallions before they can breed and maybe charging more for their stud fee. Maybe this would put off a lot of mare owners thus improving british breeding.

Dont get me wrong some of the most sensible horses I have ridden have been accidents or from unproven parents but surely people should breed them like this just like people breed for disciplines rather than breeding something and being lucky it turns out ok.

 

[Arkmiido]

Perhaps some of the "line breeding" of horses should also be targeted... I have a pink-papered rhinelander with a club foot and a pretty bad pigeon toe the other side. He is also a complete fruit loop. Apparently it's a pretty common occurrence in his "family"! Great. There are some stallions who are renowned for their ability to throw deformed foals ie 25% of the time. Did they stop breeding from them? No, because the other 75% were pretty good. Is this ok?? Well, what happens when that 75% go on to breed and the net generation have the problem that missed their parent?
And the line of german warmbloods who are so swan-necked that there are a large proportion of wobbler syndrome produced?? We are talking about VERY well bred horses that go for alot of money, that there is a definite market for - ok not the ones who are wobblers, but the same lines that produce them!

Perhaps mares should be vetted and graded for suitability as much as the stallions who are stood at stud?
Perhaps, like humans, genetic screening will soon be common-place for horses and hereditary conditions/diseases/temperaments?!


I also have a bit of an objection to rehab'ing ex racers that have sustained such severe injuries, thus rendering them only suitable for light "happy hacking" when their breeding and temperament usually require that they are in homes where they are worked regularly by experienced owners? I've met some that perhaps would have been happier as pedigree chum than the situations they find themselves in! Yes, I know *some* make excellent hacks for novices, before I am shot down!


I'm not sure this campaign will stop the p***ys producing numerous strange looking creatures who seem to have quite astonishing worm damage from a young age and alot seem to go through the local auction to god knows where.

I think the main problem is that the whole campaign is pretty unenforceable. The people for whom awareness will be raised are probably already pretty responsible and consciencious about their choices to breed anyway, and those that should be affected by the campaign will ignore it anyway!!

And on a personal note, when will the campaign for responsible breeding of humans start?! I've met a few that shouldn't have been allowed to contribute to the gene pool!! Is that all a bit Brave New World.... Sorry.

 

[Sugarplum Furry]

Sorry I am a natural skeptic. I d like to see where this campaign is really going and who it is going to target specifically, before I commit any of my funds.

Yep, that's how I feel about it too.

 

[Cadfael&Coffee]

it's not about stopping cross breeding, it's about stopping breeding from animals with naff conformation.

by all means, every beastie should be loved by somebody, even if said animal is poorly put together, but that doesn't make it acceptable to breed from them. many x breeds have excellent conformation, but there's a lot of rubbish out there.

and don't get me started on the racing industry!

 

[Storminateacup]

I think the main problem is that the whole campaign is pretty unenforceable. The people for whom awareness will be raised are probably already pretty responsible and consciencious about their choices to breed anyway, and those that should be affected by the campaign will ignore it anyway!!

And on a personal note, when will the campaign for responsible breeding of humans start?! I've met a few that shouldn't have been allowed to contribute to the gene pool!! Is that all a bit Brave New World.... Sorry.

I do SO agree about the unenforceability of this whole campaign as well as your final point about responsible breeding of humans too - hysterical, and never more timely than nowadays!!!!

 

[LauraBR]

I think questions people have raised are really interesting, perhaps it would be worth inviting someone from the BHS to answer them- I'm sure they would welcome the opportunity.

I quite agree that it is a huge and difficult problem to tackle- I'm sure the BHS would be the first to acknowledge that too! As I understand it, the main emphasis is on educating people across the board- I don't see how working to improve awareness of the serious welfare issues surrounding breeding from unsuitable animals (poor conformation, health issues, bad temperament), and breeding above demand, can possibly be a bad thing??

For those of you who are sceptical- how would you tackle the problem?

LOL re a human version! Maybe you should launch one crockshard

 

[sywell]

It is typical of the UK and its failure to work together before you start a project the BEF is responsible under the DEFRA plans for British Breeding and has a body which produces a magazine called British Breeder at no time before the launch of the BHS project did anyone consult this body and I do not remember any prelaunch discussion in any depth with the Horse and Pony Breeds Committee and it is typical of the horse industry not working together and everone working together.

 

[smellsofhorse]

A good cause.

There are so many unwanted horses out there why breed more?

If someone wants a project or something to bring on look around for a horse in need.

The same goes for dogs and cats etc.

I think there should be laws about breeding animals.
tighter restrictions etc

 

[Maesfen]

I think it's a complete waste of time and money simply because the people who should be targeted couldn't give a fig anyway for any rules or regulations; MOTs and travellers come to mind plus a whole lot more. By all means try to educate people about what is a good looking, pleasant animal with the ability to pass those requirements on but many people who should be targeted as the worse type of breeder will not be the sort to read where this campaign is published.
They should bring back approval and licencing for all stallions, all colts should be inspected no matter what breed they are at two and if necessary, a court order made that they should be gelded the next day; I'd be inclined to do it with some humans too...........(tongue in cheek folks, don't worry!)
Ideally mares should be inspected too before breeding but a bit more difficult as you can't geld them and you don't have the same number of produce from them as a stallion is capable of.
Fines for any unlicenced stallion used to both the stallion and mare owner so they both must take responsibility;
DNA needed to register any foal/horse whatever the breed, no DNA, no registration and immediate gelding no matter how nice it is.
Stallions only allowed to cover so many mares in one year, each to have a quota, any over that limit are taken off the next year quota and so on.
The list is endless and expensive to monitor (which is where it all falls down) but until you start hitting irresponsible people in their pocket this problem will be here forever and no campaign will ever stop it.

 

[M_G]

And on a personal note, when will the campaign for responsible breeding of humans start?! I've met a few that shouldn't have been allowed to contribute to the gene pool!! Is that all a bit Brave New World.... Sorry.

I agree 100% on this one

 

[dominobrown]

I think there needs to be some sort of licensing programme and all stock must be inspected first. I don't think TB's are the main problem though but cobs etc which to be honest were orginally bred for meat. I know of about 5 people who breed horses in 5 mile radius of me. Some of them are inbreds, none of the owners can ride or train them. Some of them are better than others (though a lot are inbred) but they end up at horses sales etc and there are lucky if the they make £50. The horses live in overcrowded barns or fields, some often starving to death in fields, or getting crushed to death in the barns. And yes the RSPCA do know about this.

 

[Brontie]

Very worth while cause.
Unfortunately I know one guy that hires a stallion, lets it loose in his field with mares and geldings, and the stallion covers who / how many he wants and the owner just keeps an eye out on their bellies. Irresponsible

 

[Berpisc]

Cobs were originally bred for meat...hmmm....think I will nip and get my tin hat...

The trouble is with licencing systems is that they are unworkable in this situation. The honest cough up for yet more for more paperwork, the feckless dont and dont care.

It is a difficult subject, responsible breeding (of anything ). At least the BHS are trying to raise awareness, thought whether those that need to will take heed.

 

[dominobrown]

Well the people breeding a lot of these horses probably don't know what the BHS is to be honest. Also most of the horses bred by the people near me are for meat, they don't ride/drive them, but apparantly the horse meat industry in this country isn't doing well at all. If every stallion and mare had to be graded then it would reduce the problem though as some of you have said it would be difficult to police etcv.

 

[Maesfen]

Very worth while cause.
Unfortunately I know one guy that hires a stallion, lets it loose in his field with mares and geldings, and the stallion covers who / how many he wants and the owner just keeps an eye out on their bellies. Irresponsible

Exactly, is he likely to respond to this campaign? Not a fig in hell chance of that and this is who the campaign should be sorting out.

 

[Alexart]

I agree with Maesfen - the people that need to stop breeding - the ones this program is really targeted at are not going to listen and are too dumb to understand anyway!! I've seen horses bred from that conformationally make me shudder, and surprisingly the foals are no better, but those that breed them see nothing more than making a few bucks and really don't care about the horses.

I think more responsibility should go to stallion owners too - I know tons of people with stallions that will cover any mare no matter what and tell mare owners exactly what they want to hear regarding the possible results, when it is totally obvious they will get some hideous fugly! But by then it is too late as fugly is now on the ground, and to be honest alot of mare owners haven't a clue anyway so see a very cute foal that is going to be the next top dressage horse, when 3 yrs down the line their cute foal turns into fugly of the year and has no use other than a pasture pet!! - all the stallions fault of course - so what do they do - put the mare to a different stallion!!!! There's also the I want a certain colour/spottiness regardless of wether the stallion actually suits the mare at all - have seen some good examples of that and the results are pretty awful!!!

As a friesian stallion owner we get heaps of enquiries every year most are genuine but we do get tons of people who can't afford a pure friesian so want to cross FuglyBetsy with a friesian hoping they will get some gorgeous fairy tale horse with flowing locks just like the stallion - despite explaining to them their mare will pass on some or all of her conformation!!! We've even put on our website it is cheaper to buy than breed and what it will roughly cost you to get a mare in foal and even then nothing is guaranteed - some read it most don't! There's also the I want a friesin X loosadraftyhairyshetlandstandardbred and think this would make a great showjumper!
I don't disagree with crossbreeding at all in fact I encourage it, as friesians suffer from a whole list of genetic problems due to inbreeding, but it has to be done with the right mare and have an aim, alot of mare owners don't even think past getting the foal on the ground!!

We only sold semen to 2 mares this year out of 21! - the rest were just not suitable or not going to produce what the mare owner wanted - it always gets blamed on the stallion when foalie does not turn out as expected. Most owners do take this sensibly and go and buy a youngster or more suitable mare instead, but some owners get so mad when you actually tell them FuglyBetsy really shouldn't be bred from at all and list the reasons why conformationally she is just not suited regardless of the fact that her grt grt grt grt grandfather won the derby, and also she is never going to produce a dressage star - but you hear a few weeks later FuglyBetsy has gone to another stallion and is now in foal - sigh!!!

So I think this is a great idea in theory but how do you enforce it, at the end of the day if people are going to put their fugly mare in foal they will regardless of what you tell them - just not with my stallions!!! - but it seems I am one of the few stallion owners that actually ask for a conformational shot of their mare before selling any tadpoles, I also ask a heap of questions about soundness, her temperament and what they want to do with said foal and have they considered all the outcomes of breeding - it's not hard to do so why more stallion owners don't do it I don't know as it makes their stallion look bad if the offspring are ****!!

 

[marmalade76]

I think it's a complete waste of time and money simply because the people who should be targeted couldn't give a fig anyway for any rules or regulations; MOTs and travellers come to mind plus a whole lot more. By all means try to educate people about what is a good looking, pleasant animal with the ability to pass those requirements on but many people who should be targeted as the worse type of breeder will not be the sort to read where this campaign is published.

Totally agree. The worst offenders will not take any notice at all.

 

[redemption]

i agree totally,i'm so against people who buy brood mares just to make money without thinking of if they can find homes for these off spring. for me it's always people who have too much money and no sense at all!!!

 

[thatsmygirl]

We have a guy near us who breeds tbs, all the mares are failed race horses which he picks up locally and breeds every year, can't sell any cause he wants to much money and now has a stupid amount inn his fields. None are broken and they all just sit there. This is stupid breeding for no reason but he keeps doing it.
A girl locally brought a project horse who nobody could break in and some very experienced people tried, so what did she do??? Yep you have guess it, put her in foal and sold her. These are the people who need stopping