JackDaniels1
Well-Known Member
Any difference between using a bhs loan agreement compared to getting one drawn up by a solicitor?
In 2 minds as to which route to take!
In 2 minds as to which route to take!
BHS V solicitor loan agreement...
- Thread starter JackDaniels1
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competitiondiva
Well-Known Member
A solicitor drawn up one will cost!!!
I took down the bhs one and dressed it up to meet the needs I wanted, I gave a copy to the loaners to read through and address any issues then once both parties happy both sign and date and get someone to witness signatures from both parties.
P.S. If you are loaning a horse out, you remain the owner and therefore responsible for its care and wellbeing under the AWA, so check the home and do regular checks throughout the term of the loan.... (probably teaching to suck eggs etc )
I took down the bhs one and dressed it up to meet the needs I wanted, I gave a copy to the loaners to read through and address any issues then once both parties happy both sign and date and get someone to witness signatures from both parties.
P.S. If you are loaning a horse out, you remain the owner and therefore responsible for its care and wellbeing under the AWA, so check the home and do regular checks throughout the term of the loan.... (probably teaching to suck eggs etc )
_daisy_
Well-Known Member
sorry to say but when I had issues with a loanee I was informed by a legal team that the BHS agreement isnt worth the paper its written on so i would opt for the solicitor one as I would like to say it would be watertight should something awful happen
Dovorian
Well-Known Member
I was told the same about the BHS agreement - my loanee split the cost of the fee to draw up a decent ageement. After all there is a benefit to both parties in a good agreement.
DollyDolls
Well-Known Member
The most important thing is that you can trace the person.
How well do you know them? Look at their driving licence / passport (& WRITE IT DOWN). Do you know where they live?
Getting a loan agreement does help, but not when it's full of false details.
How well do you know them? Look at their driving licence / passport (& WRITE IT DOWN). Do you know where they live?
Getting a loan agreement does help, but not when it's full of false details.
PeterNatt
Well-Known Member
The BHS loan agreament is a draft of an agreament and once you have decided what you want put in it then a solicitor should use it as the template of what you want.
Before loaning a horse you should always have it micro-chipped and also freezemarked on it's shoulder so that if it goes mising it can be identified. Also keep some of the hair from it's mane and tail in a safe place for dna identification.
Always ask to see a copy of the passport, driving licence, rates bill and a utility bill of the person loaning the horse and photocopy them. That way you can indentify the person loaning the horse.
Sadly a number of loaned horses dissapear each year.
Before loaning a horse you should always have it micro-chipped and also freezemarked on it's shoulder so that if it goes mising it can be identified. Also keep some of the hair from it's mane and tail in a safe place for dna identification.
Always ask to see a copy of the passport, driving licence, rates bill and a utility bill of the person loaning the horse and photocopy them. That way you can indentify the person loaning the horse.
Sadly a number of loaned horses dissapear each year.
gnubee
Well-Known Member
Having seen the work done by a number of solicitors (both "cheap" local ones and even by the big corporate suits) in other contract areas, I would be reluctant to argue that a solicitor drawn one has a better chance of being watertight.
I would also be very suprised if the BHS one wasn't drawn up by a solicitor initially.
Yes there are elements in it which may not stand up legally, depending on the circumstances, but unless you have very unusual circumstances or KNOW you have a very good solicitor (who you will probably have to pay what they are worth!) then I would tend to stick with the BHS one as at least you can be confident that no one in the wider equestrian community has spotted any gaping flaws in it due to its public exposure.
The real key is to make sure that the contract states reasonable rights and responsibilities of both parties (to best avoid legal challenge) and does not contradict itself.
Think through things that may go wrong. If the contract expressley provides what will happen in that situation, it will be very hard to argue otherwise in court. Contract law really isnt as complex as people like to make it seem. Even if certain provisions wont stand up, is is a good idea to have them included in your written agreement if that is how you have agreed it will be, as it is a reminder to both parties and clear evidence of the agreement you reached, which should bind you both ethically even if not legally.
I would say that 99% of the problems encountered by people in loans aren't that the contract wouldn't stand up. They are partly that the contract didn't provide for a situation that arose, partly that the contract wasn't being enforced until it was too late, and in the vast majority (as the poster above mentions) evidenciary difficulties or problems actually finding someone to enforce the contract against. This includes things like loaners leaving town with the horse, loaners getting a passport reissued and claiming ownership of the horse, or difficulty proving that some kind of forbidden activity under the contract (e.g. jumping/not feeding right) is occuring. I would put far more reliance on a loaner you trust and your ability to monitor the situation and address problems (formally or informally) before they escalate than on any kind of "watertight" loan contract.
In conclusion, it is more important to know what you expect out of the contract than it is to have a solicitor involved in the process, and I think the legal expense involved in this can cause people to leave out what they consider non-essential clauses to save expensive professional time. I would only consider professional involvement if a loan contract was so out of the ordinary that I was having to take serious liberties with the BHS one to make it fit the situation.
I would also be very suprised if the BHS one wasn't drawn up by a solicitor initially.
Yes there are elements in it which may not stand up legally, depending on the circumstances, but unless you have very unusual circumstances or KNOW you have a very good solicitor (who you will probably have to pay what they are worth!) then I would tend to stick with the BHS one as at least you can be confident that no one in the wider equestrian community has spotted any gaping flaws in it due to its public exposure.
The real key is to make sure that the contract states reasonable rights and responsibilities of both parties (to best avoid legal challenge) and does not contradict itself.
Think through things that may go wrong. If the contract expressley provides what will happen in that situation, it will be very hard to argue otherwise in court. Contract law really isnt as complex as people like to make it seem. Even if certain provisions wont stand up, is is a good idea to have them included in your written agreement if that is how you have agreed it will be, as it is a reminder to both parties and clear evidence of the agreement you reached, which should bind you both ethically even if not legally.
I would say that 99% of the problems encountered by people in loans aren't that the contract wouldn't stand up. They are partly that the contract didn't provide for a situation that arose, partly that the contract wasn't being enforced until it was too late, and in the vast majority (as the poster above mentions) evidenciary difficulties or problems actually finding someone to enforce the contract against. This includes things like loaners leaving town with the horse, loaners getting a passport reissued and claiming ownership of the horse, or difficulty proving that some kind of forbidden activity under the contract (e.g. jumping/not feeding right) is occuring. I would put far more reliance on a loaner you trust and your ability to monitor the situation and address problems (formally or informally) before they escalate than on any kind of "watertight" loan contract.
In conclusion, it is more important to know what you expect out of the contract than it is to have a solicitor involved in the process, and I think the legal expense involved in this can cause people to leave out what they consider non-essential clauses to save expensive professional time. I would only consider professional involvement if a loan contract was so out of the ordinary that I was having to take serious liberties with the BHS one to make it fit the situation.
JanetGeorge
Well-Known Member
I know quite a bit about the BHS Loan Agreement TEMPLATE (because that's what it is - it gives you an outline of the things that need to be covered and completed.) That's because I drafted the original agreement - which was then checked out by the BHS solicitors to check it was 'fit for purpose'. (Solicitors don't usually know enough about horses to know where to start!
)
If it's sensibly and correctly completed, then it would stand up - hell - I've had an agreement that consisted merely of exchanges of e-mails stand up in court. But if a lot of changes, additions are required,k then it would be safest to have the completed agreement checked by a solicitor to ensure it is clear.
But any agreement is NOT worth the paper it's written on if the horse or the loaner/loanee have 'disappeared'. Check references, ensure you have ALL pertinent details of both parties, and check regularly!!
If it's sensibly and correctly completed, then it would stand up - hell - I've had an agreement that consisted merely of exchanges of e-mails stand up in court. But if a lot of changes, additions are required,k then it would be safest to have the completed agreement checked by a solicitor to ensure it is clear.
But any agreement is NOT worth the paper it's written on if the horse or the loaner/loanee have 'disappeared'. Check references, ensure you have ALL pertinent details of both parties, and check regularly!!
Kat
Well-Known Member
As a lawyer I would say, read the BHS template, and if it roughly fits the sort of thing you want then tailor it yourself to fit the circumstances and you should be fine.
However if you have unusual circumstances, for example are loaning a brood mare, or high value competition horse or are loaning a horse for commercial purposes it would probably be sensible to involve a SPECIALIST solicitor.
The key with the BHS agreement is not to just blindly sign it, spend some time on getting it exactly as you want it and making sure that it applies to you. Don't worry about legal speak but make it clear. If you are unsure you could pay for a solicitor to check it or you could speak to the legal helpline at the BHS.
However if you have unusual circumstances, for example are loaning a brood mare, or high value competition horse or are loaning a horse for commercial purposes it would probably be sensible to involve a SPECIALIST solicitor.
The key with the BHS agreement is not to just blindly sign it, spend some time on getting it exactly as you want it and making sure that it applies to you. Don't worry about legal speak but make it clear. If you are unsure you could pay for a solicitor to check it or you could speak to the legal helpline at the BHS.