Biomechanics people - toes sticking out

[canteron]

After a lifetime of riding kick along horses (more whoa than go) I have horrible toes that stick out.
I am now trying to develop a more subtle style of riding - on a more forward going horse - but it is so so hard.
Do some people just have toes that like to stick out and any thought or hints on how to rectify - or is it just hours in the saddle riding consciously turning in toes?

 

[Slightlyconfused]

You need to train your whole body. Maybe go to a physio to see if they can help with exercises for tight muscles.

 

[milliepops]

Yeah i think some input from an expert on the ground would be useful. There are various folk doing rider biomechanics clinics and that would probably be where I would start in your shoes because there can be all sorts of things going on. for example, do your legs hang down with the toes just pointing out or are you gripping at the lower leg which then makes them stick out? Sometimes these things can come from higher up and focussing on the feet isn't the right thing. and so on.

 

[Birker2020]

After a lifetime of riding kick along horses (more whoa than go) I have horrible toes that stick out.
I am now trying to develop a more subtle style of riding - on a more forward going horse - but it is so so hard.
Do some people just have toes that like to stick out and any thought or hints on how to rectify - or is it just hours in the saddle riding consciously turning in toes?

you can buy these on the internet to insert into your stirrup irons and they help with your foot position, they also sell a pair that can make your heels stick down as they have a different slant on them.

 

[Roxylola]

Its likely from your hips, its almost always hips. However, all the biomechanics in the world can't change jockey conformation. I'm knock kneed, and to be soft in my knee I have to be a little toe out

 

[Hackback]

I've given up worrying. My legs must be wonky anyway because if I stand with my feet facing forward my knees turn in. I wonder if it was all the practising to be a ballerina that I did when I was little - not that I ever was one, but I spent most of my time trying to stand with my toes pointing to opposite sides of the room ? Regretting it now ...

 

[Shilasdair]

After a lifetime of riding kick along horses (more whoa than go) I have horrible toes that stick out.
I am now trying to develop a more subtle style of riding - on a more forward going horse - but it is so so hard.
Do some people just have toes that like to stick out and any thought or hints on how to rectify - or is it just hours in the saddle riding consciously turning in toes?

When you stand on the ground, do your toes stick out?
If so, no amount of 'biomechanics' or 'expert advice' is going to change your physical body shape. And if you try, you will just create tension in your body, which is the enemy of forward movement.
I think too much equitation theory relies on the 'ideal' riding physique of tall, thin, boobless and entirely symmetrical.
Real humans have to work with what they have.

 

[Spanny]

Its likely from your hips, its almost always hips. However, all the biomechanics in the world can't change jockey conformation. I'm knock kneed, and to be soft in my knee I have to be a little toe out

Me too! Add in tight hip flexors (too much time sitting at a desk) and being naturally slightly pigeon toed, just to complicate things. A classical instructor who really understands biomechanics helped me a lot but I also have to work within the bounds of what is possible for my body.

 

[poiuytrewq]

Really strangely I have just started riding two much wider than my own and very laid back horses and caught my toes sticking out. I’m far from perfect but that’s something I’ve never ever done!
Hoping I caught it quickly before it’s became habitual.
Funny how different horses can make you do different things.

 

[J&S]

If you read/follow Mary Wanless she has helpful ideas about this. Mostly relaxation of the ankle joint and also weight into the little toe. It does become automatic afer a while. Also, don't try so hard to keep your heels down in the "old fashioned" way, you know, "heels down, elbows in" etc, become more loose and flexible, from the hips as suggested.

 

[Uliy]

Don’t try to force it from your ankle as you’ll make it really sore, I did as a teenager! You need to think of it as from your hip, as others have said.

 

[Roxylola]

Really strangely I have just started riding two much wider than my own and very laid back horses and caught my toes sticking out. I’m far from perfect but that’s something I’ve never ever done!
Hoping I caught it quickly before it’s became habitual.
Funny how different horses can make you do different things.

Hips again - being a bit more stretched than normal in this case

 

[tda]

Ride a little each day with your feet out of the stirrups, might help stretch your legs a little

 

[PSD]

My lower leg swings in canter and my toes stick out. This is from a lifetime of having a pony I had to cling on for dear life to without putting any lower leg on because she would just get faster! It’s difficult to change old habits!

 

[P.forpony]

I was called the penguin as a child, toes perpetually at a right angle!
It's definitely the hips in my case and correcting it (or continously working on it) while riding has actually improved my normal posture.
I find the easiest thing is to think about keeping your thigh and knee off. If your legs are tight at the top they become more rigid lower down, and end up rotating and sticking out.

 

[mavandkaz]

I've given up worrying. My legs must be wonky anyway because if I stand with my feet facing forward my knees turn in. I wonder if it was all the practising to be a ballerina that I did when I was little - not that I ever was one, but I spent most of my time trying to stand with my toes pointing to opposite sides of the room ? Regretting it now ...

I'm so glad I'm not the only one!
My toes have always pointed out when riding....and walking...and standing
If I stand with my toes parallel, pointing forwards, my knees are turned in.
My flat work instructor is constantly telling me to turn them in, but it just won't happen as my knees would have to be facing inwards.

 

[poiuytrewq]

Hips again - being a bit more stretched than normal in this case

Yes, I suppose so! I was horrified!
Glad there’s a reason ?

 

[AmyMay]

If you read/follow Mary Wanless she has helpful ideas about this. Mostly relaxation of the ankle joint and also weight into the little toe. It does become automatic afer a while. Also, don't try so hard to keep your heels down in the "old fashioned" way, you know, "heels down, elbows in" etc, become more loose and flexible, from the hips as suggested.

Absolutely this.

 

[w1bbler]

Also recommend a mechanical horse session with someone who will concentrate on your position.

 

[tallyho!]

Hips as always is the key… a little higher up is your core so worth checking if your central with a body worker and being relaxed is helpful. I was amazed how crooked I was… one toe out one toe in.

Ride out of the stirrups and then ride in the stirrups but standing… get used to this balance and you might crack it because a chair seat will show you can’t stand in the stirrups well and a grippy knee will tip you forward. Add in a wrong stirrup length you’ve got a catalogue of errors which all add up against you

 

[Peglo]

Think I’ve just realised I do this too. Always knew my position wasn’t great and forever loosing stirrups but only realised my toes point outwards. I have a bad habit of holding on with my thighs after riding my old Haffie bareback all the time and the same as PictusSweetDream, I couldn’t put any lower leg on without going faster although we were usually top speed already but didn’t need to encourage her ?

 

[poiuytrewq]

Reading through the comments someone above mentioned a body worker. What actually is a human body worker? A chiro/physio or totally different?

 

[sbloom]

Really strangely I have just started riding two much wider than my own and very laid back horses and caught my toes sticking out. I’m far from perfect but that’s something I’ve never ever done!
Hoping I caught it quickly before it’s became habitual.
Funny how different horses can make you do different things.

No surprise at all, your hips have to do different things on different shaped horses.

Ultimately we all have our own unique pelvic and hip conformation and some of us will struggle with wide horses, wide twists, too much saddle, but conversely others will struggle with narrow horses, narrow twists and not enough saddle. I would highly recommend having an assessment with a good biomechanics coach as what is causing your feet to turn out may not be what causes someone else's, but I'd also think about saddle. If you have your own horse and saddle then it's clearly something you may be able to address, finances willing, but if it's not your horse then obviously that is more challenging. Unfortunately even with biomechanics teachers, let alone riding school teachers, they don't understand the interplay between rider and horse conformation, and the saddle. It's complex and anything you do that introduces tension is ultimately going to be counterproductive in the vast majority of cases.

 

[sbloom]

Reading through the comments someone above mentioned a body worker. What actually is a human body worker? A chiro/physio or totally different?

Any modality - I think it's helpful for both horse and rider to have a skeletal bodyworker (McTim chiro, osteopath) and a soft tissue person (so many options from masseur to myofascial release etc), usually seeing the latter a bit more often than the former.

I should also stress that rider conditioning programmes are a really good idea in addition to a bodyworker - Activate Your Seat and the group Pain Reduction for Riders on FB are both very good and there will be others.

 

[poiuytrewq]

Any modality - I think it's helpful for both horse and rider to have a skeletal bodyworker (McTim chiro, osteopath) and a soft tissue person (so many options from masseur to myofascial release etc), usually seeing the latter a bit more often than the former.

I should also stress that rider conditioning programmes are a really good idea in addition to a bodyworker - Activate Your Seat and the group Pain Reduction for Riders on FB are both very good and there will be others.

Great thank you! I’ll go look at those two now.

I wonder if anyone can comment on this, if, In my case I have bad very tight hips anyway and as mentioned I noticed my toes sticking out on these two very wide horses.
Back on my own my toes don’t stick out but I am getting quite achy.
Is riding the wide horses doing me good (if it’s stretching my hips) or really not helping me out at all?! Bit concerned now I’ve realised they are effecting my hips.
On the plus one of them I can ride with no stirrups which is something I can’t do with my own so I thought that might be good for me in general.

Sorry op!

 

[sbloom]

Why not get onto a rider conditioning programme? Then you know you're helping your body . It may be that you actually have hips that just aren't built for wide horses, no matter how much stretching you do, if we stretch too much we can lack stability, so it's best to look at an overall programme, or have a proper assessment by someone who understands how riders bodies need to function. I will say that riding in poor form is unlikely to help, as it builds the wrong muscle memory, if you're in tension then it's definitely not good...

 

[Roxylola]

Great thank you! I’ll go look at those two now.

I wonder if anyone can comment on this, if, In my case I have bad very tight hips anyway and as mentioned I noticed my toes sticking out on these two very wide horses.
Back on my own my toes don’t stick out but I am getting quite achy.
Is riding the wide horses doing me good (if it’s stretching my hips) or really not helping me out at all?! Bit concerned now I’ve realised they are effecting my hips.
On the plus one of them I can ride with no stirrups which is something I can’t do with my own so I thought that might be good for me in general.

Sorry op!

Possibly no stirrups - primarily in walk focusing stretches might help. But if your body is compensating in the wrong ways you risk cementing those bad habits. I'd second pilates or yoga type conditioning. There are plenty of equestrian focused ones especially online

 

[LEC]

Great thank you! I’ll go look at those two now.

I wonder if anyone can comment on this, if, In my case I have bad very tight hips anyway and as mentioned I noticed my toes sticking out on these two very wide horses.
Back on my own my toes don’t stick out but I am getting quite achy.
Is riding the wide horses doing me good (if it’s stretching my hips) or really not helping me out at all?! Bit concerned now I’ve realised they are effecting my hips.
On the plus one of them I can ride with no stirrups which is something I can’t do with my own so I thought that might be good for me in general.

Sorry op!

It wont be just tight hips, it will also be tight glutes and hamstrings. I think its no coincidence most of the top pros do yoga or Pilates now. There are some good You Tube videos and I really quite like Tom Merrick who has loads of mobilising exercises.

 

[Tarragon]

If I stand with my knee caps pointing forward, my toes point out.
If I stand with my toes pointing forward, my knee caps point in.
Just the way I am, and I am pretty sure that nothing can change it, a conformational defect

 

[Landcruiser]

Both me and my brother (especially my brother) used to get told we walked like penguins. Apparently I rode like one too, but didn't know it until I had my own horse at 48, and my instructor grabbed my foot and said turn your toes in and almost broke my flipping leg as she forced my toes into the correct position, or that's what it felt like! Anyway, that was about 12 years ago, and my position is way better now, after endlessly forcing myself to walk and ride straight. At first it was painful but eventually got easier. They still escape sometimes (jumping) but default to the correct position otherwise.
FYI my brother still walks like a penguin