Bit Dilemma (strong horse with sore mouth)

Danii

Danii

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My Gypsy Cob mare used to be ridden in a jointed eggbutt snaffle... However, she was so strong and I had no breaks what so ever, so I used a Dutch gag, mainly used on 1st/2nd ring.

Apart from leaning on bit sometimes, I had great control over her and she went lovely in it, however, my mare has a very pink nose with very thin and sensitive skin, therefore the loose ring pinched the corners of her mouth, I even tried bit guards with the gag and it still rubbed (the rubbers rubbed also).
a 5 1/2 eggbutt did not rub & fitted fine
so i even tried a 6" gag and it still rubbed her (with and without bit guards)

I need a bit that i can use which acts same as a Dutch Gag, but does not have a loose ring, is there such thing, or similar products?

I tried her again in her snaffle the other day and she bolted off with me, unable to control her. I just don't want her mouth to rub if i know it doesnt when she does not wear a loose ring bit.

Any Suggestions? Thank you
 
A pelham without a curb chain fitted will do a great job. Very similar in action to a Dutch gag but unfortunately very much looked down on these days as "severe" when it is no more severe than a Dutch gag is. Use roundings or two reins.
 
Although expensive, a short or long shank combination myler could help? They look severe but are actually very kind (as they don't need much pressure) and work on the nose, poll and bars.

I have an MB04 long shank on Jazzy and it taught him what touching the reins meant, without overfacing him. I can now put any bit on him and stops easily.

http://www.thesaddleryshop.co.uk/S/Bits_Myler_Bits_Myler_Combination_Bits-(262).aspx

They can be picked up much more cheaply on eBay though.
 
Danii said:
My Gypsy Cob mare used to be ridden in a jointed eggbutt snaffle... However, she was so strong and I had no breaks what so ever, so I used a Dutch gag, mainly used on 1st/2nd ring.

Apart from leaning on bit sometimes, I had great control over her and she went lovely in it, however, my mare has a very pink nose with very thin and sensitive skin, therefore the loose ring pinched the corners of her mouth, I even tried bit guards with the gag and it still rubbed (the rubbers rubbed also).
a 5 1/2 eggbutt did not rub & fitted fine
so i even tried a 6" gag and it still rubbed her (with and without bit guards)

I need a bit that i can use which acts same as a Dutch Gag, but does not have a loose ring, is there such thing, or similar products?

I tried her again in her snaffle the other day and she bolted off with me, unable to control her. I just don't want her mouth to rub if i know it doesnt when she does not wear a loose ring bit.

Any Suggestions? Thank you
Click to expand...

I can only speak as I find and I have had GREAT success with a bit recommended to me by my fabby EDT. Neue Schule trans angled lozenge pelham.http://www.nsbits.com/index.php/sport-horse-collection/pelham.html

For horses that have fleshy tongues you will need a thinner mouthpiece as it comes in two thicknesses. I'd ring up Neue Schule directly and speak to them for advice. My friend borrowed this bit for her horse off me the other night and has now ordered one!

This is what it says about this particular bit: Very beneficial for horses that lean in a standard Pelham. Innovative lightweight, elegant cheek design. Very popular in the show ring incorporating the NS Tranz Angled Lozenge mouthpiece. This Pelham is designed to be comfortable promoting a rounder outline, encouraging more freedom through the shoulder. Often sourced for control and self-carriage, this Pelham usually gives more feel and response as opposed to a standard solid mouthpiece that often encourages fixing and blocking, culminating in a ‘wooden’ feel. ©

My horse goes really well in it, he does feel half as heavy as he used to and I have a really good amount of control in it. What's more i am able to see a stride better when we jump a course of showjumps and i feel 100% more confident as a result. Going from a horse that rushed into a fence like a steam train, to a horse that is now cantered into a fence on an unaltered stride is the most wonderful feeling ever. He is comfortable and the warm metal alloy allows him to salivate more. His old mouthpiece pelham was a straight bar and unfortunately it had been bearing down on the bars of his mouth causing the start of a calcification process. My EDT picked up on it straight away and I owe him a huge thanks.

Unfortunately trying out bits is all about trial and error, I think most of us can own up to having a box full of bits that we have tried and failed to use sucessfully on our horses. NS doesn't come cheap but its been worth every penny for me.
 
I'm afraid i'd be staying the school, in a headcollar, and reins, until she's trained to stop from a light aid. It's scary you're needing to put so much metalwork in her mouth, and apply so much pressure, just to make her do what she's asked. That suggests that something's gone very wrong with her schooling somewhere.

Once she responds properly to light sensitive aids i'd then find a bit she's comfortable with, be it a snaffle or a curb.
 
Kallibear said:
I'm afraid i'd be staying the school, in a headcollar, and reins, until she's trained to stop from a light aid. It's scary you're needing to put so much metalwork in her mouth, and apply so much pressure, just to make her do what she's asked. That suggests that something's gone very wrong with her schooling somewhere.

Once she responds properly to light sensitive aids i'd then find a bit she's comfortable with, be it a snaffle or a curb.
Click to expand...

I tend to agree here. I think what is important is to establish brakes, instead of just using bigger ones. As you say your horse is sensitive, if i were u i would like to keep her in the mildest bit available. But what you have to do is teach her what the aids are. The bit is not for control, but for communication. Unfortunately soo many people think of the bit as the 'brakes', so if you cant stop a horse in one bit, they tend to move on to a stronger one, to see if that works.

What i would do is lots of transitions, walk to halt, trot to halts. But the main thing is to remember to give the reins as soon as the horse responds. People just tend to sit with a constant contact, so the horse never gets a reward for doing the right thing. When you ask the horse to stop, release the reins and reward the horse. I normally like to do this on a slack rein, this way the horse can learn to feel a very subtle change in contact. So you pick up the rein, the horse stops, you give the rein and reward. This way the horse learns that by stopping and getting the release, that they are doing the right thing. After all, horses tend to learn from pressure and release. Once the horse can halt well from a walk, try halting from the trot. as soon as the horse stops, release and reward. I normally ask for a backup straight after a halt, this way the horse learns to think STOP faster if u ask for a backup. By doing this, the horse will start to associate the stop with a light ask from the reins, (i also use a Woow voice command too), so you should be able to stop from any pace on command. Its important to have the horse light aswell. You dont want the horse to lean against you, or raise its head. The head should be low, mouth soft and relaxed, never ask for a wow or backup if the head is high, this hollows the back.
By asking and releasing, the horse will learn to soften and respond better, so hopefully if done right, the horse will learn not to tank off because as soon as you ask for a stop, they respond straight away.

Sorry for the essay, hope it helps somewhat.
 
Jennyharvey said:
I tend to agree here. I think what is important is to establish brakes, instead of just using bigger ones. As you say your horse is sensitive, if i were u i would like to keep her in the mildest bit available. But what you have to do is teach her what the aids are. The bit is not for control, but for communication. Unfortunately soo many people think of the bit as the 'brakes', so if you cant stop a horse in one bit, they tend to move on to a stronger one, to see if that works.

What i would do is lots of transitions, walk to halt, trot to halts. But the main thing is to remember to give the reins as soon as the horse responds. People just tend to sit with a constant contact, so the horse never gets a reward for doing the right thing. When you ask the horse to stop, release the reins and reward the horse. I normally like to do this on a slack rein, this way the horse can learn to feel a very subtle change in contact. So you pick up the rein, the horse stops, you give the rein and reward. This way the horse learns that by stopping and getting the release, that they are doing the right thing. After all, horses tend to learn from pressure and release. Once the horse can halt well from a walk, try halting from the trot. as soon as the horse stops, release and reward. I normally ask for a backup straight after a halt, this way the horse learns to think STOP faster if u ask for a backup. By doing this, the horse will start to associate the stop with a light ask from the reins, (i also use a Woow voice command too), so you should be able to stop from any pace on command. Its important to have the horse light aswell. You dont want the horse to lean against you, or raise its head. The head should be low, mouth soft and relaxed, never ask for a wow or backup if the head is high, this hollows the back.
By asking and releasing, the horse will learn to soften and respond better, so hopefully if done right, the horse will learn not to tank off because as soon as you ask for a stop, they respond straight away.

Sorry for the essay, hope it helps somewhat.
Click to expand...

^^agree 100% ^^
 
Jennyharvey said:
I tend to agree here. I think what is important is to establish brakes, instead of just using bigger ones. As you say your horse is sensitive, if i were u i would like to keep her in the mildest bit available. But what you have to do is teach her what the aids are. The bit is not for control, but for communication. Unfortunately soo many people think of the bit as the 'brakes', so if you cant stop a horse in one bit, they tend to move on to a stronger one, to see if that works.

What i would do is lots of transitions, walk to halt, trot to halts. But the main thing is to remember to give the reins as soon as the horse responds. People just tend to sit with a constant contact, so the horse never gets a reward for doing the right thing. When you ask the horse to stop, release the reins and reward the horse. I normally like to do this on a slack rein, this way the horse can learn to feel a very subtle change in contact. So you pick up the rein, the horse stops, you give the rein and reward. This way the horse learns that by stopping and getting the release, that they are doing the right thing. After all, horses tend to learn from pressure and release. Once the horse can halt well from a walk, try halting from the trot. as soon as the horse stops, release and reward. I normally ask for a backup straight after a halt, this way the horse learns to think STOP faster if u ask for a backup. By doing this, the horse will start to associate the stop with a light ask from the reins, (i also use a Woow voice command too), so you should be able to stop from any pace on command. Its important to have the horse light aswell. You dont want the horse to lean against you, or raise its head. The head should be low, mouth soft and relaxed, never ask for a wow or backup if the head is high, this hollows the back.
By asking and releasing, the horse will learn to soften and respond better, so hopefully if done right, the horse will learn not to tank off because as soon as you ask for a stop, they respond straight away.

Sorry for the essay, hope it helps somewhat.
Click to expand...

This is absolutely right. Also I agree with what someone else said about riding in a headcollar although I would suggest a rope halter not a flat webbing headcollar which encourages leaning.
I taught my horse a one rein stop - you ask the head to come to one side and the hindquarters to move away so the back legs cross and disengage - this is like an emergency stop if your horse gets too strong. I find it useful on sponsored rides, galloping on grass or when we go cross country when my horse gets particularly over excited but it does mean I can stop without a bit in any situation. If I had two reins and pulled she would just pull back.

I think that bits are for refinement and when we can stop from a canter, turn left and right, back up and go sideways without a bit then it is time to reintroduce the bit for riding with contact (dressage).
 
unbalanced said:
This is absolutely right. Also I agree with what someone else said about riding in a headcollar although I would suggest a rope halter not a flat webbing headcollar which encourages leaning.
I taught my horse a one rein stop - you ask the head to come to one side and the hindquarters to move away so the back legs cross and disengage - this is like an emergency stop if your horse gets too strong. I find it useful on sponsored rides, galloping on grass or when we go cross country when my horse gets particularly over excited but it does mean I can stop without a bit in any situation. If I had two reins and pulled she would just pull back.

I think that bits are for refinement and when we can stop from a canter, turn left and right, back up and go sideways without a bit then it is time to reintroduce the bit for riding with contact (dressage).
Click to expand...

I think that the one rein stop is a great tool to use for strong horses. If you bend the neck and disengage the hindquarters, the horse cant pull on you. They only way a horse learns to pull is by having something to pull against ie the rider.
 
cptrayes said:
A pelham without a curb chain fitted will do a great job. Very similar in action to a Dutch gag but unfortunately very much looked down on these days as "severe" when it is no more severe than a Dutch gag is. Use roundings or two reins.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't have thought that was "severe", so much as utterly ineffective without a curb?

OP try a kineton noseband, you can stick it on her snaffle, some horses do open their mouths which some riders hate, but they soon stop when they realise they can't evade the nose pressure.
 
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