Bit for big strong horse, who will bolt with fright?

[phantomhorse]

Okay, this might end up a bit long

I've taken on the horse from this post-

Post

and have been working with him on the ground for 3 weeks now. He lunges and long-reins beautifully, although once or twice (and for no obvious reason) he'll start at something whilst working and suddenly shoot off in a panic, then stop and tremble at the end of the line. If you approach to touch him, he'll stay frozen to the spot but flinch away dramatically. When he does this I spend about half an hour with him, petting, talking to him and walking him quietly in hand until he starts to relax again. Once he's relaxed, he'll carry on working nicely - like nothing has happened. This happened a couple of times in the first week or so of working with him but, touch wood, he's started to relax in the menage, to concentrate and work really nicely.

I had him vetted in the week after he arrived, had his teeth floated and his back checked. All is fine.

Last weekend he had a saddle fitted, and during the fitting I mounted him and walked him around the track which rund around the outside of the yard's buildings. (A route he is very familiar with now.) He stood quietly to be mounted, and although was tad nervous of walking out on his own initially, never stopped or napped, and went fine after a minute or two and walked positively through the cattle yard at the rear of our yard with his ears pricked, not batting an eyelid. That was all I did. He got a big pat when we got back to his stable after the 8 minute walk, and I was pleased that I'd found a saddle for him.

A couple of days later I planned to do the same short walk under saddle after we'd lunged, and was pleased that he wasn't at all nervous venturing out this time. We walked quietly along for about 3 minutes when suddenly, and for no apparent reason, he shot off at speed. No warning whatsoever. Luckily we were on the narrow driveway of the yard as I couldn't pull him up. He's was very strong, so I jumped off the nearside and pulled him up sharply from the ground. Aside from a pulled shoulder muscle from pulling him up, no harm was done.

I am back to lunging and long-reining him for the time being, but wonder what bit I should try him in when I start schooling him properly under saddle. I'm assuming the 'running off' thing is something he will do again, and whilst I will be somewhat safer in the confines of the menage initially, I still need control and to be able to pull him up safely.

He's not a mean horse in any way, and genuinely hasn't a bad bone in his body; but he is flighty and spooks so it's something I am going to have to tolerate and work through with him.

Normally I retrain and school in a copper mouthed peanut snaffle, but something tells me this is not going to be sufficient in this instance. He's got a wide mouth (6in) and a very strong tongue. I was riding him in a rubber pelham when he ran off the other day and I couldn't pull him up. He wasn't in a martingale and had on a loosish flash noseband.

Here are 2 pictures of him lunging -

And stood in yard -

Has anyone any advise or tips to offer?

 

[Slinkyunicorn]

How old is he? and how long has he been ridden for before you got him? and just out of interest how big is he - he looks huge!!

but nice!

 

[china]

i think a martingale will help, but as for a bit i think you will just have to trial and error with some till you find the right one. i find when i ride without a martingale that when his head goes up it is much harder to stop.

 

[f_s_]

He looks like a huge horse in the photos, and pretty strong!!!

You don't say how old he is, but he looks a nice sort

Does he grab hold of the bit when he takes off? Only a suggestion, but , what about a waterford, or something he can't take hold of, if that's what he does?

 

[canteron]

I have a big strong horse, who is spooky to hack out and has bolted with me in the past (not fun). I have had great success with a double reined rubber pelham. What I have found is I can keep her in an outline, and this means that she is a) happier because she believes I am in control and she relaxes more and b) because she is working in an outline she is less able to spook effectively. So this might be one for you to consider. I have found that the more she goes out and 'works' the less she is inclined to dream up things to worry about so it has been a virtuous circle.

Because the pelham is rubber, which to be honest I now use most of the time and the curb only if I need to get her to concentrate, it is not an unkind bit by any means.

I know some people think that it 'fixes the neck' but as my aim is for me and my horse to be happy - and safe- hacking out, then I think this is an acceptable trade off and in fact I do school and compete in a snaffle.

I also did go to a top dressage yard to make sure I was using the double reins correctly (curb rein on outside).

Ovviously I don't know whether this will work for your horse - as the circumstances are different but for me it has made all the difference to riding a horse who is extremely strong.

 

[canteron]

So sorry, just read the bit about you using a rubber pelham - mmmm ..... were you using double reins? I have had good advice from some of the bit hire companies in the past they may be able to advise.

 

[Cliqmo]

I'm so pleased to read that someone has taken him on!! Fantastic effort and well done you

It is a tricky problem you have, because when he is bolting in fright it is possible that the extra pressure of a strong bit like a pelham or a gag might actually stress him out more and potentially make him worse... As such how about something like the bits below, as they each work on gentle but effective pressure so might help him whilst still offering you amongst the best control....

Peewee bit
http://www.thesaddleryshop.co.uk/P/peewe...rses-(663).aspx

Myler combination bit
http://www.thesaddleryshop.co.uk/P/Short_Shank_Combination_Low_Port_Comfort_Snaffle_33_04-(587).aspx

 

[phantomhorse]

Slinkyunicorn / He's just turned 8 and is exactly 16 hands. Ldlp111 says he was professionally backed and schooled and his manners on the lunge and long-reining would support that. He's dead quiet to do things with, on the ground; bathing, clipping, mane pulling, trimming, hot shoeing, grooming, sheath cleaning, rugging up, tacking up, etc. Nothing phases him, so he's obviously used to all of these things being done. He's always cheerful and friendly in the stable.

F_s_ / I was riding him in a straight bar rubber pelham, which I don't think was the best choice as he has a thick tongue and the mouth peice is quite chunky. However, was the only 6" pelham I had and I was only planning to walk around the block for 5 - 8 minutes! Honestly cannot remember exactly what he did as it all happened so quickly, but I think he grabs the bit, sets his neck and just goes. Certainly, any pulling on the rubber snaffle from the saddle, had zero effect. Must admit, I've ridden very highly strung and flightly horses all of my life, but they've all been Arab, Anglo or TB's which were strong willed but sensitive at the same time (if that make sense LOL!) This chap is the first cob cross I've had, and he's obviously a different kettle of fish from the pure blood horse I'm used to.

X_miss_buffay_X / Yes, a running martingale may be a necessity! I hack my other horse out in a Market Harborough; she is good 90% of the time but it helps greatly for the 10% when she plays up. I ride her in two reins, one attached to the French Link like normal, and the other rein is the MH one. I don't actually own a running martingale! Looks like I'll need to go shopping

Canteron / I had actually wanted to try him in a jointed rubber pelham initially but wasn't able to source one in a 6 inch width. I think the straight bar rubber-mouth I used was too thick, and too mild to be effective on him. I don't know if he's been ridden in a curb before, so maybe he paniced at that? I don't know, but it certainly didn't slow him up at the time. Not sure whether to try him in it again, but in the confines of the menage and with a running martingale attached to the snaffle rein. Gosh, he's going to look like one of those showjumpers from the 1990's!!! Poor horse!

 

[PoppyAnderson]

I know this isn't strictly about bits but thought it might be interesting reading for you http://www.horseproblems.com.au/bolting_horse_page.htm and http://www.horseproblems.com.au/video_pages_of_problem_horses.htm (scroll down to 'Off the track thoroughbred' and 'one rein stop', about half way down).

 

[zeuscleoharmony]

Oh, what a worry for you. Something crossed my mind, do you think he is getting any trigemenal pain or other pain? I believe trigemenal pain is so intense and comes on so quickly. I am lucky to be able to ride bitless so am unable to give any advice whatsoever on bitting but is this an avenue you would/could ever think about? I do hope you find an answer to your problems. xx

 

[phantomhorse]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm so pleased to read that someone has taken him on!! Fantastic effort and well done you

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you! He's coming on wonderfully and has really come out of his shell in the few weeks he's been with us. I've got four children and he great with them. Loves them petting and brushing him and they tell me daily, "Oh, he's the BEST HORSE in the WHOLE WORLD!" Just fingers crossed, we can over come the running off problem.

[ QUOTE ]
It is a tricky problem you have, because when he is bolting in fright it is possible that the extra pressure of a strong bit like a pelham or a gag might actually stress him out more and potentially make him worse...

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, exactly what I feared too. I know he was previously ridden in a Dutch Gag but I don't know if he's worn a curb before. I did cover the chain in a rubber guard and use a lip strap to make it as comfortable as possible, but I must admit I did not foresee him bolting off during our quiet walk, and me having to haul on both reins to try to turn him and pull him up.

Thank you for the links to those bits. I'll have a look.

 

[gothdolly]

How about an uxetter kimblewick, which will give room for the tongue? I personally hate the bit but have to concede its usefulness for these kind of horses.

I also think a grackle is better for those that run off rather than a flash.

Good luck!

 

[Slinkyunicorn]

Sounds like he is a nice boy

- I hope you manage to resolve this bolting off problem. When my cob went through a similar phase I used a Cheltenham gag with two sets of reins. Only needed to use it a couple of times to actually stop her but just rode her in it (on snaffle rein) for back up for a couple of months. You said he 'set his neck' - this is very common in cob/heavier types - the other thing that works is when he starts to drop his head (you just end up pulling against a set neck) raise your hands as it will raise his head/neck so will find it harder to pull against you. It feels very odd and goes against everything you have been taught but it does work.

Good luck with him - as otherwise he sounds like a very nice boy.

 

[flyingfeet]

I've read both your posts and this is my two pennies:-

You have to nip this in the bud, I am not sure whether this is just spooky nappiness or a true bolt (where the horse will run through fences and has no self preservation). If the latter, do no persist as you will end up in hospital.

However if this is spooking and running, this can be solved. You will need to take a serious hard line on this, as its a serious undesirable fault. If the horse were mine they would be in a choice of 3 bits for the cure -

1. Lozenge pelham, 9" shank, two reins and grackle
2. Double bridle, two reins
3. Barry gag two reins (not for rearers), drop noseband

These bits are sharp and designed for clear "oi" and to make the horse think the riders reaction to a spook is far worse than the object that it was spooking at. All spooks and naps should be quickly dealt with.

People may not agree with short sharp shook to cure, however there are far too many horses that leap sideways and / or run. This hurts your back even if you are no dislodged and will ultimately lead to someone hitting the deck and possibly cause a serious accident.

 

[piebaldsparkle]

[ QUOTE ]
He lunges and long-reins beautifully, although once or twice (and for no obvious reason) he'll start at something whilst working and suddenly shoot off in a panic, then stop and tremble at the end of the line. If you approach to touch him, he'll stay frozen to the spot but flinch away dramatically.

[/ QUOTE ]

See I know you have had your vet check his back etc,,, but this shooting off for no apparent reason, then being tense after, sounds like a pain response to me.................any chance he could have ulcers or something?

 

[phantomhorse]

[ QUOTE ]
Oh, what a worry for you. Something crossed my mind, do you think he is getting any trigemenal pain or other pain? I believe trigemenal pain is so intense and comes on so quickly. I am lucky to be able to ride bitless so am unable to give any advice whatsoever on bitting but is this an avenue you would/could ever think about? I do hope you find an answer to your problems. xx

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks

Must admit, I did have the vet check him over during a vetting 2 weeks ago and nothing was evident then, although he would not have been specifically looking for a particular pain.

Having spent a lot of time with this horse over the past 3 weeks and observing him when he 'freaks out', it strikes me that he associates something fearful coming from a human. Nothing else has phased him. As I say, he's amazingly easy to handle and do things to. Unlike the rest of mine

I livery on a very busy dairy farm with lots of people, children, tractors, cats, dogs, cattle, noisy machinery and 50+ other horses, and nothing bothers him. And he's not a bit afraid of a lunge or riding whip. He's only paniced a couple of times on the lunge. The first time was when my mobile phone rang in my jeans pocket as I was lunging him in trot. I used one hand to take it out and the next thing I had a bolting horse on the end of the lunge. He shy's away dramatically but does listen to your voice and whoa up. He'll stop, eyes glazed with fear, ears at half mast, muzzle tight and anxious, and will be shaking with fear. He wont move when you approach him, but will flinch dramatically from your touch. He seemed very frightened of the lunge rein that first time, too. As I approched him and wound up the slack (very quietly, talking to him soothingly all the time) he would jump away every time the rope moved. Once I was petting him, I showed him the lunge rope and the mobile phone, and he sniffed both and relaxed somewhat. He was skittery after that, so I wound the lesson up pretty quickly afterwards. The following day he lunged beautifully, thankfully. He's not since shied at the mobile phone, although can be frightened of the lunge rein if he gets anxious about something else when we're working. The second time he took off on the lunge, I've no idea what set him off but on that occasion, once he'd stopped shying, he took off at a tense trot and would not stop. He ignored my voice and simply trotted non-stop for 35 minutes until he finally gave up from exhaustion and listened to my voice.

It's still early days, and I'm not yet sure what his triggers are, but I do think it's something associated with what he thinks a human is going to do, rather than pain. I may be wrong, but having watched his reactions, he seems to become very, very afraid of being approached and touched. Something which ordinarily he's fine about

 

[phantomhorse]

[ QUOTE ]
See I know you have had your vet check his back etc,,, but this shooting off for no apparent reason, then being tense after, sounds like a pain response to me.................any chance he could have ulcers or something?

[/ QUOTE ]

Could do, I wondered that myself. He was living out all winter, and was being fed pony nuts, sugar beet, chaff and hay. He was looking pretty sorry for himself when he arrived and was very tucked up for a week or so, but after being wormed, clipped, having a bath, a good mane and tail trim and a schedule of work, he's coming along nicely. He's relaxed in the stable and doesn't have any vices. Not sure I'd know whether or not he had ulcers. How do you tell?

 

[Slinkyunicorn]

My boy has ulcers - cribs and windsucks, sounds like he moans or growls when eating and is sensitive on his sides when girth being done up. Obviously not a definative test but may give you an idea if he is in discomfort.

 

[phantomhorse]

Yes, you see he doesn't have any of those 'symptoms'. He's got no vices and is fine to girth up.

On the subject of food, I might drop the molassed sugar beet now he's picked up a bit of weight and the grass is coming through. I know it can make some horses rather fizzy. At the moment he's on Bailey's No 4, Alfa-A Oil and a bit of soaked SB once a day.

 

[piebaldsparkle]

The only reason I suggested ulcers a livery on nextdoor yard had a 15.3hh Clydesdale X who was always being starved as lived of thin air (she was told many times to soak her hay rather than reducing it too much...........anyway). This was a laid back mare who didn't show any classic ulcer signs, didn't crib/weave etc.. She did however gallop off in blind panic and then was tense/twitchy after for no apparent reason, mainly when ridden but sometimes when lead too. She was scoped and found to have big ulcers, she had a course of gastroguard and a change of stable management and apparently became better to handle (but has since moved yards, so no recent updates). I just would rule out it being a pain response yet.

 

[Slinkyunicorn]

I would defiantely drop the molassed anything!! The first time my mare bolted with me was after she had some pasture mix - was like giving her speed!! None of mine having anything molassed and only have a high fibre diet. Do you have good grazing and is he out 24/7 apart from working?

 

[JM07]

i'd have the ba5tard shot before he kill's someone else, TBH.

 

[annret]

For a horse that runs away when they spook - mine did this - I am definately convinced that a harsher bit is not the way to go.

As PoppyAnderson mentioned, I'd definately work on mastering a one-rein-stop and keep practising this.

I'd also use a noseband which has a strong response when a horse runs away - a kineton would be my first option, a lever the second - as this dispels pressure from the mouth and places it on the face.
http://divoza.co.uk/subcat51-1054.aspx

That he's responsive to your voice when he runs on the lunge is excellent news so I'd definately start using your voice when on his back as much as possible to really crystallise aids & sharpen him to your commands.

Is there possibly something amiss with his nervous system? I would think a high oil diet and a selenium supplement might be benificial in an instance like this, coupled with a magnesium calmer like Equine America's Magnitude which is great value.

Otherwise, I think it's just going to be time and patience till you build up trust and/or find some physical issues you can solve.

 

[AmyMay]

Phantom horse, I absolutely commend you for giving this a go. But simply can't see this having any sort of happy ending.

Good luck, I hope the horse doesn't end up damaging you too badly, or permantently.

 

[Tankey]

Before you shoot it, perhaps have it checked out for kissing spine.....

 

[Shilasdair]

QR
I've ridden a mare like this in the past - she was suspected to have a brain tumour.
One thing I can tell you, is that I have realised my life is worth more than riding a horse whose behaviour is this unpredictable and unsafe.
If you don't know why he's bolting, by definition, you don't know how to stop him either, and by riding him are putting yourself and others at risk.

I'm sorry, can't offer bit advice, but I would retire him to the field, or have him PTS.
S

 

[gothdolly]

I just read the other post about how he came to you. He is one lucky horse to find you to take him on.

 

[phantomhorse]

[ QUOTE ]
I've read both your posts and this is my two pennies:-

You have to nip this in the bud, I am not sure whether this is just spooky nappiness or a true bolt (where the horse will run through fences and has no self preservation). If the latter, do no persist as you will end up in hospital.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, not sure what sort of bolter he is as I didn't remain on him long enough to find out whether or not he'd stop at a brick wall. I just knew I couldn't pull him up from where I was sat in the saddle, so opted to get off. However, when he's bolted on the lunge he has been aware of what's around him. i.e. trotting poles, barrels and the fence line and will negotiate himself around them, even when at his absolute worst. Hopefully this may suggests he doesn't completely blank out.

I think before I ride him again, even in the menage, I want to feel I am going to be in control if he does take off again. Hopefully, and now I am prepared for it, I will manage the situation better next time. But I am aware that this trait HAS to be nipped in the bud almost immediately, if the horse is to have any sort of future. My husband has already warned me that I will not be keeping him if he injures me in anyway.

And for those of you who suggest the PTS option - you are all quite right. I am not queazy about such decisions, and can guarantee that I would not hesitate to take that option should the horse prove unmanageable. As it is, I feel it is only 3 weeks into our relationship and he deserves a little longer to settle in and be found the right method of working with him. I shall carry on working with him on the ground, and next time be extremely careful when riding him. I'll stick to schooling in the menage, with assistants on hand and see how he progresses.

 

[AmyMay]

[ QUOTE ]
My husband has already warned me that I will not be keeping him if he injures me in anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

And what, exactly, will happen to this horse if your OH lays down the law and demands he goes??

 

[f_s_]

I have nothing really to add to this, other than, I commend you for giving this horse a second chance, he is very lucky to have found you.

Sometimes, no matter how had you try, you can't cure everything. I'm really glad you have given him a second chance, but please don't take chances with your own safety.

Good luck, I hope you solve his issues, and remain safe and sound