Bit help strong hunter please!

cptrayes

cptrayes

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My hunter is splitting his gums because he is pulling so hard in his excitement. He just loves jumping big hedges at speed! I can control him fine, but I am unhappy that he is hurting himself. I'm considering trying a Myler combination to spread the load and see if nose pressure will help.

He is currently in an unported a pelham with metal curb and two reins. To attempt to evade me he dives his nose downwards and I have to pull his head up again. He also raises his head way up too, so I have a martingale on. Without the martingale, he can evade me completely and go as fast as he chooses :0 ! He's a 1/4 Shire 17 hander, so no wimp!

Has anyone any comments or suggestions?
 
My hunter of a similar build (17hh dales/tb) goes in a cheltenham gag with two reins :) It stops her diving her head down and although I've been cubbing her this year in a snaffle, yesterday she pulled so hard jumping that the gag will be on from next week!
 
We have one similar who goes in a Cheltenham gag, 2 reins and a Kineton noseband....

If you would like to borrow a Myler combination, I have 2 long shank ones you're very welcome to borrow to see if they work?

One has a barrel section in the middle of the mouthpeice, making it slightly flexible, but reasonably still, the other is slightly ported and jointed - both 5.5"

Neither worked on the horse we bought them for - he ran straight through them :( and now goes in a mullen mouth pelham with 2 reins and a running martingale
 
Lizzie I wonder about the corners of his lips with a Chletenham Gag. I see a lot of hunters in them with split corners and he does seem to ignore pain in his excitement, the daft dork :) Does your mare hurt her mouth at all in it? I think part of my problem is that he has the fleshiest mouth, lips and bars (with a great big fold of fat flesh right over the bar that the bit sits on and squashes) that I have ever seen!
 
cptrayes said:
Lizzie I wonder about the corners of his lips with a Chletenham Gag. I see a lot of hunters in them with split corners and he does seem to ignore pain in his excitement, the daft dork :) Does your mare hurt her mouth at all in it? I think part of my problem is that he has the fleshiest mouth, lips and bars (with a great big fold of fat flesh right over the bar that the bit sits on and squashes) that I have ever seen!
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I'd say mine was similar and no, I've never had any problem in the gag but I do in a snaffle because she pulls so hard!
 
Ooh, kind offer thanks Spacefaer :) They are the right size. I am looking at a Waterford-ish Myler just going through on eBay and if it goes at the right price I might just buy it and see. But I'm not hopeful since you have one that ran straight through it and had to put him in the bit/martingale combination mine's already in. I'm thinking of working out how to add a curb to a myler combination, because the curb is definitely a help, and I have a resident engineer who can weld extra loops in the right place for me.

I can't complain too much though - how much of a joy is it to have a horse that wants to pull your arms out to be allowed to throw himself over six foot of hedge when other people are going through the gate :) !!
 
the horse we have in the pelham is (strangely) not actually strong - he just doesn't understand the action of a bit in his mouth - he's 11 and doesn't do schooling (believe me I've tried!) I slow him using the curb, contain him using the mouthpiece - with the Mylers, the action of the leather curb was too high and the noseband pressure a waste of time!

The really strong horse my OH hunts commits to the fence regardless of landmines or small children - and sometimes needs to be made to listen! He's just about ok in the Chelt gag (as long as you don't let him go) He'd be the most amazing drag hunter - awesome over hedges!!

ETA Both of them are 17.2 Irish types so not the smallest to be slowing down either!

If either of them suited, I'd be happy to sell - I'm going to ebay them anyway as soon as I get round to it!
 
Neue Schule Universals are nice bits for a big powerful horse, with either a trans angled lozenge mouthpiece or a waterford if he leans on the bit.
 
We use a NS universal at home on my 17.3 worker and a NS waterford on him when he goes out in public - lovely bits for him - he goes nice and light and carries himself beautifully in them.

I put them on the pelham horse and might as well have been riding him in a headcollar for all the good they do..... and after that experience, didn't dare put them on the Chelt gag horse as he's stronger!!

Our next option for the chelt gag horse (if he gets more enthusiastic this season) is a cherry roller gag - so he can't lean on the mouthpiece

Love the Kineton noseband too
 
Oh mine too Spacefaer! Won't school to save his life. I do dressage with my other one, so I know it's not me, he just loathes school work with a vengeance :)

I think I have worked out how and where to ask the OH to add a hook for a standard curb, which I think will still be essential at moments of high excitement :)

Off to research NS Universals ecid, thanks!
 
It is a temptation to up the leverage, but I think he'll still split his gums and I need to get pressure somewhere else to share the load. I have decided to loan a Mikmar, which has a totally different (flat plate) mouthpiece, and pulls the noseband tighter and tighter as you pull on the curb rein. I'll let you know what happens!
 
cptrayes said:
I can't complain too much though - how much of a joy is it to have a horse that wants to pull your arms out to be allowed to throw himself over six foot of hedge when other people are going through the gate :) !!
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fair point! it is rather nice not to have to tell a horse to get over a fence when he'd rather ignore your wishes and launch himself at it! :)

cptrayes said:
I think part of my problem is that he has the fleshiest mouth, lips and bars (with a great big fold of fat flesh right over the bar that the bit sits on and squashes) that I have ever seen!
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I have a similar sort - his mouth just isn't shaped to put a bit in it, and yet, he seems happiest in a double bridle! :eek: he's stopped shoving his head down to naff off with me and is a perfect gent (or, at least he is until I ask him to wait his turn for a jump!)

cptrayes said:
It is a temptation to up the leverage, but I think he'll still split his gums and I need to get pressure somewhere else to share the load. I have decided to loan a Mikmar, which has a totally different (flat plate) mouthpiece, and pulls the noseband tighter and tighter as you pull on the curb rein. I'll let you know what happens!
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please do - I'm quite interested in the Mikmar bits, but can't really justify one just for experimental purposes when he goes pretty well in the double.
 
Gollygosh it's here already, well done thehorsebitshop.com, 24 hour delivery. 30 day trial.

Contrary to what they look like in the photos, it's as light as a feather, made from aluminium alloy. I'll be trying it on the big boy on a hack tomorrow and I'll report back. I like the fact that the curb can be replaced with chain if need be, but I need to cover the nose cord because the sensitive fellow also rubs badly and a cord will certainly mark him. They say you can use them with a cavesson, for a nice conventional look (so important for hunting :)) so that's what I'll try tomorrow.
 
Crumbs that was interesting!

First of all even with the lightest rein contact I had incredible control laterally over his shoulders. He's a specialist at wriggling a shoulder out of line so he can evade working through from behind, and he didn't do it at all after the first five minutes. I had read about this lateral control in testimonials, but I didn't believe it would have that effect on him.

I kept a very light contact and he kept raising his head six inches to drop his back, and me. He got to a point where the bit rotated and came into play , and he dropped his head again. I didn't touch his mouth to get him to drop his head, my hands stayed touching his wither all the time. After 40 minutes of gently trying time after time after time to raise his head, he stopped, pushed forward into the contact on a long rein and did a long, relaxed lope all the way home. That's a first. Never happened before, he's always too anxious to get home, pulling at the pelham, dropping the back end, and yanking forward with his right shoulder.

So something was VERY different. I was pretty sure that it was the "plate" mouthpiece that did it rather than the noseband cord, but he did respond to that when trotting up a hill and he tried to get away from me, and I picked up the curb and brought him back to me. Normally I would have to stop and start again to regain control over the power from behind instead of towing himself up the hill on his forehand.

It's going to be fascinating to hunt in it on Saturday. I'll tell you more then.

The big difference, apart from the mouthpiece, between the nose action of the Myler Combination and the Mikmar Combination is that the curb of the Mikmar is in the normal curb groove under the chin. I am going to replace the leather strap with a metal one for hunting and see how we go.

It's horribly expensive if I keep it - £120 :o, but it has achieved something today I haven't managed in a year - to get him to relax into his work. I shall trying schooling, his favourite (not) activity, tomorrow and if he relaxes again that really will be a miracle :)
 
if he is splitting the corners of his mouth you should try making him a slip head with a really thin snaffle, wrap the corners in a mesh bandage, and soak in bitter alum and pput on him twice a day for 10 mins! it will harden off the skin and the splits (wont make him hard mouthed) so they wont split/crack. bitter alum from the chemists in crystal form normally used for treating bed sores. works really well. good luck with the new bit, tho the adrenaline whilst hunting will test it!! if he likes to stick his head up i would recommend a standing martingale, correctly fitted with a 4 inch elastic insert in it!
 
Good luck :) Hope it works.

Only other suggestion is maybe try a Sam Marsh mouthpiece if he's quite fleshy?

Some people swear by peewee's too on strong horses....though I personally despise the things.
 
Short shank combination with small port - ha ha!

For "short shank" read "same leverage as a pelham on the curb rein"

For "small port" read "no port at all, actually a 'tongue' on the back edge of the bar, which sticks up into the roof of the horses mouth if he raises his head."

You can use it with one or two reins. It can act just like a pelham, or you can use the noseband loops with the curb rein which pulls the nose cord tight. Lots of options. I ended up with one rein on the main bit, and a curb rein on the nosecord loops. To hunt I might put the main rein down on the curb rings so I have a choice of curb no nosecord and curb with nosecord. Choices, choices!
 
Glad you're making progress, good luck when you next hunt.

Didn't see this before, but my mare that I event pulls down hard for XC, and will fight you until she rubs her mouth raw. I found the best bit for her was a cheltenham gag, on two reins. At the end of the day, its a snaffle if they're not fighting you, and she never argues at all in that. Touch wood, I've never had a sore mouth with that bit.
 
Good ideas thanks but he is splitting his bars, not his corners! Awful, but what can you do if they decide to hurt themselves rather than stop? Hopefully this Mikmar being over an inch wide in the mouthpiece will disperse the pressure so that he doesn't hurt himself.

I don't think I would be happy to jump a 6ft hedge in a standing martingale. The number of times I throw away the reins on a drop landing to let the horse use its head as a fifth leg, I'd hate to do anything that risked him losing the freedom to do that.

I've never heard of a Sam Marsh, I'll have to do some research :) later - found it - very similar mouthpiece, wide and flat. Still expensive but not so bad at £85
 
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Sister has used, is currently using a peewee on horses with very fleshy mouths, only ever used it on the mildest setting, but lent one to a friend who used it for XC, her horse was 'forgetting' to stop :D She found that the peewee worked, without doing any damage, might be worth seeing if you can borrow one and give it a try. They are off putting when you first see them, as they are so thin, but the horses with very fleshy mouths seem to like them, they also like the fact that they are sweet iron. Good luck with the search.
 
Binky01 said:
Good luck :)

Some people swear by peewee's too on strong horses....though I personally despise the things.
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Have you ever used one Binky? Or is it just that you dislike the look of them?

I have used them on 2 different horses, one a Clyde mare and the other an ID mare. They both have thick tongues and fleshy lips which leave little room for a mouth-piece. They have both gone well in them and stopped leaning on the bit. I have also found that the side pieces help with steering / evasions such as spinning.
I have lent mine to a friend who used it to train her eventer to turn when asked.
Although I first got one after the Clydie had TROTTED of with me and I could only stop her by aiming her at a wall, I'm not convinced that it would stop a Shirex hunter in full flight. The eventer friend said that her horse got used to it and stopped listening to her requests to slow down.
IMO this bit is brilliant for the right horse with the right rider with good hands.
 
Thanks Honey08, I know a lot of hunters go well in a Cheltenham Gag. I'm very wary with this horse, who was completely uncontrollable and bolted several times in a pelham with a leather curb first time out last season, and will allow his chin to be cut by a curb chain rather than stop when hounds are running unless his head is held down by a martingale. Even then he loses flakes of dead skin for a couple of days afterwards.

I am almost certain that if I do put him in a running-cord type gag that it will raise the bit in his mouth and he will pull until the corners of his mouth split. (I know from experience on a hack when we met some cows, that I don't have a hope in hell of holding him in a snaffle!) He seems completely oblivious to pain in his anxiety to stay up with the field master. Strangely, he is no problem whatsoever to stop behind the Field Master even if the huntsman and whips carry on in plain view - it's as if he knows who he is :)

The Mikmar is a fascinating bit, with that peculiar tongue on the back of it with a copper milled-edged roller in it, very loose. Every time he brought his head down I heard the roller tinkle, so that was doing something too. He is an anxious horse, and the blurb says that it makes anxious horses relax. I didn't believe that at all until I tried it today. I have never known him relax like it, never mind heading back towards home, which he always wants to reach faster than I do. Normally, if I drop the contact on the pelham on my way toward home, he would break into a trot and if not restrained, a canter. To sit there with a long rein on a light contact and have him swing his back under my seat was a complete and utter surprise.

I'm not anxious to spend that much money, but if it makes life easier for both of us it would be well worth it.
 
Off to research peewees now, but I don't think a thinner mouthpiece is the answer when his blood is up.

Later - I would actually try that bit, but on a different horse. I love the lateral extensions, such a great aid to steering baby unguided-missile horses. Lots of TB's like those very thin mouthpieces too. I'm not sure what Radar would make of it but I don't think I would dare try a bit without a curb and poll pressure....
 
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Yes I have a few times, hence why I don't like them Pearl :) It's not a case of just the look of them, I just haven't got on with them, they're not to my personal liking that's all. :)

I mentioned it as I do know some people swear by them so suggested it as it may work on her horse, my personal opinion on them however still remains that I dislike them that's all!
 
Hackamore?

Death wish!

Steering in a hackamore at high speed is very haphazard, and with a hunt jump you have two or three feet between jumping the fence and jumping the barbed wire to the side of it :o They try to follow the field, and if the people in front of you are already off to the left, they will try their best to take the shortest route to keep up with them and that means swinging left and jumping the wire. A hackamore would be a quick way to a short life and a messy death :)
 
Hello...you could try a dutch gag on the bottom ring. I have a Suffolk Punch x ID and it seems to work. I'm not saying he doesn't get a bit excitable but we have control. xxxx
 
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