Bit ID, Please

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Hiya, this is just a pure guess from looking at the picture. I think the horse has a bit that when pressure is applied to the bit (by pulling on the reins) the bit 'spins' (a little bit like a dutch gag works) and the chain under the chin then is pulled up against the chin. From the picture it looks like a bit for a few more brakes! But i have no idea what the name of it is sorry
Again this is only a guess from looking at the picture not entirely sure.
 

Cortez

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Good grief! If that's what it takes to ride that horse they'd be better off not trying to take it XC at all. Murderous looking gadget.
 

Cortez

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Yes, one should never ride a horse in anything other than a snaffle, right? ;)
Wrong; I don't ride anything in a snaffle actually and don't think snaffles are particularly "nice" bits. The horse has it's mouth gaping in the majority of the pictures, the rider is plainly hauling the face off it, and that contraption is designed to exert maximum pressure - and is also clearly not working if the desired effect is to control.
 

ester

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given that the chrono thread mentions that she was previously yellow carded twice for being 'out of control' one assumes this one is working better than the previous option.
 

TarrSteps

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Mostly covered with snow. ;)

Again not the point, but as another perspective on the 'this horse shouldn't go xc' view, they did win a PanAm gold. . .

The horse has a bit of a history and has been ridden in the past by a much larger person than Jesse. He if also a stallion, so there is a lot riding, if you'll excuse the pun, on his competitive success. To the 'it's a flat schooling issue' idea, he does a good test. . .

There are quite a few horses going xc in a lot of bit, even if they are ones we are used to seeing. The fact that Ian Stark, a famously strong and bold rider, needed an American cherry roller gag for Murphy Himself would suggest that few other riders would have coped with any known bit. Even WFP had a pretty significant Mikmar pelham on Seacookie, I think it was.

I understand the objection to 'big' bits and even the question should a horse that strong even be on xc? But at that level it's a game of inches and the risk of being out of control is huge. If you're going to leave the box, qualified to ride at that level, you need to know when you take a pull the horse is going to listen.
 

little_flea

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Mostly covered with snow. ;)

Again not the point, but as another perspective on the 'this horse shouldn't go xc' view, they did win a PanAm gold. . .

The horse has a bit of a history and has been ridden in the past by a much larger person than Jesse. He if also a stallion, so there is a lot riding, if you'll excuse the pun, on his competitive success. To the 'it's a flat schooling issue' idea, he does a good test. . .

There are quite a few horses going xc in a lot of bit, even if they are ones we are used to seeing. The fact that Ian Stark, a famously strong and bold rider, needed an American cherry roller gag for Murphy Himself would suggest that few other riders would have coped with any known bit. Even WFP had a pretty significant Mikmar pelham on Seacookie, I think it was.

I understand the objection to 'big' bits and even the question should a horse that strong even be on xc? But at that level it's a game of inches and the risk of being out of control is huge. If you're going to leave the box, qualified to ride at that level, you need to know when you take a pull the horse is going to listen.
Well, quite... ;)
 

LouisCat

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Mostly covered with snow. ;)

Again not the point, but as another perspective on the 'this horse shouldn't go xc' view, they did win a PanAm gold. . .

The horse has a bit of a history and has been ridden in the past by a much larger person than Jesse. He if also a stallion, so there is a lot riding, if you'll excuse the pun, on his competitive success. To the 'it's a flat schooling issue' idea, he does a good test. . .

There are quite a few horses going xc in a lot of bit, even if they are ones we are used to seeing. The fact that Ian Stark, a famously strong and bold rider, needed an American cherry roller gag for Murphy Himself would suggest that few other riders would have coped with any known bit. Even WFP had a pretty significant Mikmar pelham on Seacookie, I think it was.

I understand the objection to 'big' bits and even the question should a horse that strong even be on xc? But at that level it's a game of inches and the risk of being out of control is huge. If you're going to leave the box, qualified to ride at that level, you need to know when you take a pull the horse is going to listen.

As always, TarrSteps speaks a lot of sense!
 

flyingfeet

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That actually looks like a barrel racing bit

In design actually not too far from using a continental bit with a curb strap. I'm wondering if people wouldn't be so judgmental if the curb chain (going to call it that even thought its higher) was leather

In my opinion regardless of discipline, I would rather see soft hands with a strong bit than rough hands with a soft bit. I think some people are utterly ignorant of just how much bruising a single jointed snaffle does, and if I hear the words "they were pulling my arms out" all I can think is poor horse, bet their mouth is bruised as hell.
 

Cortez

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Mostly covered with snow. ;)

Again not the point, but as another perspective on the 'this horse shouldn't go xc' view, they did win a PanAm gold. . .

The horse has a bit of a history and has been ridden in the past by a much larger person than Jesse. He if also a stallion, so there is a lot riding, if you'll excuse the pun, on his competitive success. To the 'it's a flat schooling issue' idea, he does a good test. . .

There are quite a few horses going xc in a lot of bit, even if they are ones we are used to seeing. The fact that Ian Stark, a famously strong and bold rider, needed an American cherry roller gag for Murphy Himself would suggest that few other riders would have coped with any known bit. Even WFP had a pretty significant Mikmar pelham on Seacookie, I think it was.

I understand the objection to 'big' bits and even the question should a horse that strong even be on xc? But at that level it's a game of inches and the risk of being out of control is huge. If you're going to leave the box, qualified to ride at that level, you need to know when you take a pull the horse is going to listen.
I have seen horses ridden in bits with mouthpieces made of bicycle chain; I'm sure when the rider took a pull the horse heard that loud and clear - does that make it acceptable to put it in the horse's mouth?
 

TarrSteps

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Nope. :) Not for me.

But then people do all sorts of things with horses that I would not and, most likely, vice versa sometimes. I have seen the horse in question and I know who has ridden it before and I know how the person who rides it now rides other horses. I am absolutely certain I could not ride one side if that horse xc so I really cannot judge.

I have seen Western Pleasure horses, for instance, ridden in horrifying get ups and in those cases, yes, I feel I could safely and effectively ride those horses in a way more suites to my preferences and ideals. You argue that horse should not be going xc if he can only go in such a bit and perhaps you are correct. His owners are easy to find so perhaps it's a point to take up with them.
 

Cortez

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It's a point I would like to take up with the eventing bodies (US / UK); what exactly is legal to stick on a horse's head? Owners/riders tend to get a bit blind when the goal overtakes the journey........
 

DabDab

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*Rolls up sleeves thinking this post might be a bad idea...*

A long time ago an elderly gentleman took great lengths to impress upon my young mind what a delicate piece of anatomy the bars of a horse's mouth are. Putting a simple piece of metal across them is already pretty severe. So when you haul on a horse's mouth and and get resistance back it is not horse's mouth that is providing the resistance, it's the muscles leading up to the mouth. So we make bits with leverage to try and override the resistance in the poll and top of the neck. But the horse still pulls like hell so we make the stuff in and around its mouth more severe in the hope that the utter discomfort that this causes will be sufficient to counteract the rest of the resistance in the horse's neck.

I understand that on a xc course that is far preferable to not being able to stop when you need to, but is it fair, all in the name of sport?
 

TheMule

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*Rolls up sleeves thinking this post might be a bad idea...*

A long time ago an elderly gentleman took great lengths to impress upon my young mind what a delicate piece of anatomy the bars of a horse's mouth are. Putting a simple piece of metal across them is already pretty severe. So when you haul on a horse's mouth and and get resistance back it is not horse's mouth that is providing the resistance, it's the muscles leading up to the mouth. So we make bits with leverage to try and override the resistance in the poll and top of the neck. But the horse still pulls like hell so we make the stuff in and around its mouth more severe in the hope that the utter discomfort that this causes will be sufficient to counteract the rest of the resistance in the horse's neck.

I understand that on a xc course that is far preferable to not being able to stop when you need to, but is it fair, all in the name of sport?
I rode a very strong horse- extremely strong, as strong as they come and would frequently feel on the point of out of control. And yes, I bitted him up for the xc. Was it fair? He loved the sport, adored going xc and the reason I retired him eventually was because he started napping in the dressage. Had he not wanted to go xc, I'm pretty sure he would have napped there too!!
 

TarrSteps

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A very valid point, Dibdab. My PERSONAL view is that I don't like leverage bits for exactly that reason. I think people should have to deal with the force they are exerting on the horse and, if it's too much for them, then they have to reassess the situation in its entirety.

However people ARE going to ride and jump horses that they can't always control safely in a direct pull bridle (bitted or not) and then the question becomes how best to keep everyone safe and, hopefully, effect positive change. Like all complex situations in life, people can opt out and simply choose not to deal with the reality, or they can stay in the fight and hope to influence when they can. If everyone who wants things to be different walks away - a perfectly justifiable personal choice - then who is left to try to shape at least minor, individual change?

And where are the lines? How much control should we have over what other people do with their horses? (This is a slightly different conversation in the UK, from what I can observe.) Who decides what is okay?

I think it is a conversation worth having but it is always going to be a conversation. It has been ongoing since people started riding horses.
 

DabDab

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A very valid point, Dibdab. My PERSONAL view is that I don't like leverage bits for exactly that reason. I think people should have to deal with the force they are exerting on the horse and, if it's too much for them, then they have to reassess the situation in its entirety.

However people ARE going to ride and jump horses that they can't always control safely in a direct pull bridle (bitted or not) and then the question becomes how best to keep everyone safe and, hopefully, effect positive change. Like all complex situations in life, people can opt out and simply choose not to deal with the reality, or they can stay in the fight and hope to influence when they can. If everyone who wants things to be different walks away - a perfectly justifiable personal choice - then who is left to try to shape at least minor, individual change?

And where are the lines? How much control should we have over what other people do with their horses? (This is a slightly different conversation in the UK, from what I can observe.) Who decides what is okay?

I think it is a conversation worth having but it is always going to be a conversation. It has been ongoing since people started riding horses.
Yes exactly - This opinion is simply my own. The relevant equestrian sport authorities are far better placed, with far more evidence at their finger tips, than me to decide where to draw the line in any sport. TBH I don't generally express opinions on other people's tack and equipment because it's not my place. My remarks here were purely in the context of a general discussion.

Out of interest - how is the conversation different in the UK?
 

oldvic

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For those concerned that the horse is suffering for being in too strong a bit, he has competed since that photo was taken in a Pelham and was in control. He doesn't appear to have much conscience about his balance and doesn't like to sit on his hind legs. This is not just a training issue - top trainers have been trying hard to correct him with limited success.
 
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