Bit recommendation please

Wagtail

Wagtail

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I need to find a dressage legal bit for a difficult to bit WB mare. She was ruined by schooling in draw reins as a youngster and arrived at my yard ridden in a grackle noseband, jointed pelham and draw reins. She was regularly being ridden by a senior dressage judge who could not get her going round in a snaffle or hanging cheek. After a few weeks of schooling her, I got her going nicely in a nue schule demi anky without draw reins or flash. But two years on, she takes all of my strength to hold her together and get her going through, though she looks lovely to watch and not so difficult as she actually is! The problem is, her owner is not able to get her forward and round with any of the following bits:

Happy mouth straight bar loose ring snaffle or hanging cheek.
Spenger KK ultra
Myler hanging cheek
Nue schule demi anki
French link loose ring
Mullen mouth kimblewick (I know this is not dressage legal but we wanted a bit owner could school her in)
Mullen mouth hanging cheek

With all of these bits, the mare constantly messes with her mouth and refuses to work through.

The only bit her owner can ride her well in is a mullen mouth pelham, but occasionally, the mare backs off this and is not forward enough.

Any suggestions? Thanks.
 
What is the mouthpiece of the mullen mouth pelham made of, metal or the old fashioned vulcanite? I have one who is very happy in the vulcanite although the mouth conformation would suggest he needs a far thinner bit and cannot cope with the thinner metal mouthed one.

If it works this still leaves you with the problem of a dressage legal bit however I do know someone who had the shanks ground off a vulcanite pelham leaving just a changing cheek, in effect.

If anyone thinks this might be useful to wagtail perhaps they would quote it for her as I understand she has me on UI.
 
jemima_too said:
What is the mouthpiece of the mullen mouth pelham made of, metal or the old fashioned vulcanite? I have one who is very happy in the vulcanite although the mouth conformation would suggest he needs a far thinner bit and cannot cope with the thinner metal mouthed one.

If it works this still leaves you with the problem of a dressage legal bit however I do know someone who had the shanks ground off a vulcanite pelham leaving just a changing cheek, in effect.

If anyone thinks this might be useful to wagtail perhaps they would quote it for her as I understand she has me on UI.
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:D No I don't.

The mouthpiece is made of vulcanite. You are right that normally the mare (judging by her mouth conformation) would need a slimmer bit, but this pelham is the only bit she goes nicely in (apart from occasionally backing off). All other bits she messes with and trys to get her tongue over. It's a nightmare trying to find a dressage legal bit for her owner to compete her in. I hate flash nosebands with a passion, but I am almost tempted to try one on her. Trouble is, I am of the opinion that if a horse is happy with the bit you don't need one.
 
What is her mouth confo like? Does she have a history of any mouth probs that might lead to remembered pain? Does she have any lasting muscle issues from the use of the draw reins? Can she still move straight without swinging out in behind?

She might just be really struggling with not having the draw reins and the comfort she might have found in them. They would have put her in a less flexible position and although not desirable, she might have found confidence in that. It might be as if you have taken that comfort blanket away and she is struggling with that.

What is she like if you lengthen the reins and ask for a longer contact, or even drop it alltogether? If she still holds herself as if in draw reins then I think you will need to totally ignore any notion of a contact and get get her to feel comfortable with the idea of moving her head and neck and simply moving forwards. Only when she is established and confident like that will you be able to ask her to start working into a contact without her dropping straight back off the contact.

Perhaps a bit that offers less movment might suit her? Something like the NS eggbutt http://www.nsbits.com/index.php/sport-horse-collection/fixed-cheek/tranz-angled-lozenge-eggbutt.html I would totally avoid anything with poll pressure, or that might give more tongue pressure as you want her to hold herself correctly without giving to any pressure - simply responding to your leg and working into the length of rein offered - oh so much easier said than done!

Good luck, a horse that is used to draw reins is a hell of a schooling challenge if you are determined to do things correctly!
 
Wagtail said:
:D No I don't.

The mouthpiece is made of vulcanite. You are right that normally the mare (judging by her mouth conformation) would need a slimmer bit, but this pelham is the only bit she goes nicely in (apart from occasionally backing off). All other bits she messes with and trys to get her tongue over. It's a nightmare trying to find a dressage legal bit for her owner to compete her in. I hate flash nosebands with a passion, but I am almost tempted to try one on her. Trouble is, I am of the opinion that if a horse is happy with the bit you don't need one.
Click to expand...

So have you tried the totally against the grain things like taking off the curb chain and still using both reins? Or using a piece of elastic instead of the curb chain? How does she go with no curb and only the "snaffle" rein? The other thing my fussy lad went well in was a leather-wrapped thickish single jointed D ring snaffle, with a drop noseband.
 
ThePony said:
What is her mouth confo like? Does she have a history of any mouth probs that might lead to remembered pain? Does she have any lasting muscle issues from the use of the draw reins? Can she still move straight without swinging out in behind?

She might just be really struggling with not having the draw reins and the comfort she might have found in them. They would have put her in a less flexible position and although not desirable, she might have found confidence in that. It might be as if you have taken that comfort blanket away and she is struggling with that.

What is she like if you lengthen the reins and ask for a longer contact, or even drop it alltogether? If she still holds herself as if in draw reins then I think you will need to totally ignore any notion of a contact and get get her to feel comfortable with the idea of moving her head and neck and simply moving forwards. Only when she is established and confident like that will you be able to ask her to start working into a contact without her dropping straight back off the contact.

Perhaps a bit that offers less movment might suit her? Something like the NS eggbutt http://www.nsbits.com/index.php/sport-horse-collection/fixed-cheek/tranz-angled-lozenge-eggbutt.html I would totally avoid anything with poll pressure, or that might give more tongue pressure as you want her to hold herself correctly without giving to any pressure - simply responding to your leg and working into the length of rein offered - oh so much easier said than done!

Good luck, a horse that is used to draw reins is a hell of a schooling challenge if you are determined to do things correctly!
Click to expand...

Thanks. Her mouth conformation is low pallet and medium to fleshy tongue. I have steered away from eggbuts because she seems to be stronger in fixed bits such as the hanging cheek.

She is what I would term as 'a wriggler'. She is extremely strong with top notch breeding. More of a man's horse really, if you know what I mean. Despite being only 16 hh and slender, she is one of the strongest horses I have ridden. Her other problem is her extreme spookiness. It is impossible to ride her on a long rein if you do not want to hit the deck. We therefore tend to warm her up on the lunge before riding and it is only at the very end we can let our guard down and let her really stretch. Not ideal, I know. The problem is that I am able to ride her and keep her together and going really nicely, but I am using every ounce of my strength (mostly in my back and seat) to do so. But her owner is smaller, weaker, and older than me, and I guess the real problem is that she is over horsed to be frank. I ride the horse only once, maybe twice a week, but then her owner rides her and she gets away with not going forward and with not accepting the contact and we are back to square one. I get on and I have the initial battle all over again. The main problem is the horse is really strong in front and fights the contact all the way, but yet is very lazy off the leg. So not like the classic 'pulling horse'. Just extremely hard work all round. Typical damage done by overuse of draw reins. She does come lovely forward and light for me, but as I say, next time I ride her, I am back to square one. I just feel that if we could find a bit that she is easier in, then her owner could ride her without losing balance.

The more I think about this, the more I think I am onto a loser trying to solve this problem.
 
jemima_too said:
So have you tried the totally against the grain things like taking off the curb chain and still using both reins? Or using a piece of elastic instead of the curb chain? How does she go with no curb and only the "snaffle" rein? The other thing my fussy lad went well in was a leather-wrapped thickish single jointed D ring snaffle, with a drop noseband.
Click to expand...

Well the owner bought a bit that was identical to the pelham in the mouth and the attachment to the bridle, but with no curb and just a snaffle rein. We had no control whatsoever. I couldn't ride her in that bit either. The D ring is something we haven't tried though. Thanks.
 
lionman said:
I ride my horse in a peewee bit. I have reccomended this bit before, until I discovered it I had to ride bitless as he fussed so much in his mouth.. Google www.macsequine.com.
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Thank you. That looks very interesting. I am guessing it would not be dressage legal though? Looking at it, the mare would probably get on well with it. I will suggest it to her owner.
 
Wagtail said:
The more I think about this, the more I think I am onto a loser trying to solve this problem.
Click to expand...

Oh dear, I'm glad you said that as it was what I was coming towards thinking as I was reading your reply. A horse like that is going to be a hell of a reschool project, and perhaps the horse just isn't a good match for your client in that respect. If she can't get the horse going forwards then any kind of working contact is going to be elusive, especially in a horse as heavy in the hand as she sounds like, but without the forwards going attitude to help out.

Wish you luck with this one, a tough problem to overcome. (overuse of draw reins are one of my rants - I wish those at my yard who ride in them day in/day out would ride a horse like this one and see what trouble they are storing up)
 
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