Bitches fighting - advice please

[zoesophie]

Posted on behalf of a friend who is at her whits end with two of her dogs. I said Id post on here for her coz you lot are so helpful

Situ is, she has 3 dogs, one really old chap who keeps himself to himself and two 7yo(ish) bitches. One has come into her life within the last year or so, the other shes had since she was about 1yo. Both girls seem to fight when they get excited and I dont mean play fight

She has just got back from picking one of them up who had to have half her ear removed due to a fight. They dont fight during the day, its only when they are going for a walk, or someone comes to the door etc.

Can you offer her any advice please? Her final resort would be to split the girls up. Her parents have offered to have one of the girls but only Cookie who she has had for the longest time and shes reluctant to part with her.

Thanks in advance.

 

[sloulou]

Which one is the 'pack leader'? Perhaps they are fighting to be top dog?

Bitches are usually in charge in the house (I understand..) so one of them needs to be treated as the boss dog.. ie. greet her first, then the other one, feed her first etc etc...

I could be wrong though...

My advice really would be to get a behaviourist in, so they can see what is happening and advise properly...

 

[zoesophie]

Im pretty sure they must be fighting to be top dog but Im no dog expert

Ill pass on your advice about greeting, feeding one first etc. Sounds like the way forward I think and if not a behaviourist will have to get involved.

Thanks

 

[MurphysMinder]

2 bitches of the same age can sometimes be a problem. This would be compounded by the second bitch coming into the house when they are both fully mature. Are they similar in size as well? Although they only kick off at the moment when they are excited I think I would be very reluctant to leave these 2 bitches together I am afraid. Bitches are notorious for being worse than dogs when they do fight, and apart from them getting hurt there is always the chance someone will get hurt trying to separate them. It might be worth going the behaviourist route and trying to establish one as more dominant but I think in this situation I would consider rehoming the later arrival. Sorry not to be more constructive.

 

[zoesophie]

Thanks for you input. Both girls are the same size (and breed I believe). Ive sent her a link to a behaviourist thats been recommended to me via this forum. Lets hope its a good outcome.

 

[Cop-Pop]

Have they been spayed?

 

[zoesophie]

Yes - both have been spayed.

 

[sloulou]

[ QUOTE ]
Have they been spayed?

[/ QUOTE ]

someone more expert than me can probably confirm - but I thought spaying bitches didn't make any differnce to agressive behaviour/ fighting? But in dogs i know it can make a difference?

Is that right?

 

[danhappy]

It can apparently, some studies show by removing the calming hormones, it can make aggression worse, this is why I wasnt in a rush to get Amber spayed as two behaviourists had told me this.

Scroll down to the report by James O'Heare 'The Effects of spaying and neaturing on Canine Behaviour'

http://www.doglistener.co.uk/neutering/spaying_neutering.shtml

Taken from the site:
Female dogs are at increased risk of disease if they are allowed to experience their first heat. For this reason it is often suggested that a female dog be spayed prior to 6 months of age. It would appear that dogs who demonstrate control complex aggression (aka dominance aggression) toward owners prior to 6 months of age are at risk for becoming more aggressive after ovariohysterectomy. If a dog demonstrates a significant propensity to control complex aggression it may be wise to avoid spaying these dogs.

"When the female dogs neutered at or after puberty were compared to intact controls, several differences were noted. One difference was a significantly greater tendency for dominance aggression to be shown toward family members by the neutered females. What is not clear about the study is whether the surgery was performed in more of these dogs because aggression had already been identified as a problem, or whether there is a direct cause-effect relation. Ovariohysterectomized bitches also showed significantly more excitement in the car and less discriminate appetite than did the intact ones, even immediately post surgery."

 

[danhappy]

BTW, not saying this is correct, just what I was told.

 

[sloulou]

That must be what I was thinking of - I had in my head that spaying didn't make them calmer

just hadn't realised it could make them worse

thanks J

 

[CAYLA]

Agre with Murphy there is nothing worse than 2 bitches fighting...esp when the behaviour begins when the owner becomes present....this shows the bithches are fighting for presidente and full attention of the owner.(worst kind)
Many people suggest the.....making of one more dominant than the other to re-arange pack status....i.e feed first, stroke first, leash first, e,t,c...but Im not fully convinced myself...I have witnessed some horrendous bitch fight scenarios.
If she is determined to try and sort the problem...she will need to get someone in behavioural wise.
first thing is first though....she need to assert some boundaries herself to gain more respect from her dogs.
Parting them...even temporarily...will worsen the problem 10 fold when the dogs are allowed back together.
Neutering in bitches does not make any difference either way...it neither makes them more or less aggressive IMO.

 

[zoesophie]

Thanks for the advice, I have passed it all on. Apparently last night they had another dreadful fight out of the blue

 

[Sooty]

This is one of those problems which can get worse. If I was your friend, I would get rid of the most recently acquired bitch.

 

[zoesophie]

sadly it is I think. They were fine until recently - nothing has chaged as far as she can tell. I think she has decided that for now one is going to stay with her friend until she can get a behaviourist in and she will see after than.

 

[Stacie_and_Jed]

Poor louisa.....I would hate to give any of mine up.

I have no in put though as i dont have a club about dogs fighting.

 

[Tia]

Sooty is right; unfortunately your friend needs to rehome the last dog into the household otherwise it really will get worse. I've been there and know the outcome of it all.

I had the same thing happen with 2 of my bitches. The older one was about 6 when I got another bitch who was 1. The young bitch continued to try to take over as lead dog and for a short spell I changed the dominance order and it worked for a period of time, but then it became just as bad as previously, so I changed back the order to putting my older bitch at the top. When I made the older dog top, the younger dog was MUCH better behaved than before.....however only when I was around. The young dog ripped the old ones ears (had to have reconstructive surgery), then she puntured her knee and then the last straw was when she punctured the old dogs throat. Enough was enough - I had tried for 4 years to overcome this but it progressively was getting worse when I wasn't around.

I found an absolutely fantastic home for my young bitch where she became idolised as the only dog in the household.

My old dog flew out to Canada with me and lived a safe and happy life. She died in July quite contentedly aged 14.

Sad as it seems, so long as you find the best possible home for the dog, she can live a nice life and the older dog can go back to her blissful life again.

 

[zoesophie]

Thanks Tia, I think ultimately this will have to be the outcome. I hope her friend (who is having the dog short term at the mo) likes the dog so much that she will decide to keep her

This would be ideal as the girls are best friends and are both down our yard so she would know exactly how shes doing.

I read about the loss of your dog - so sad!

 

[prose]

Some dogs truly are better as singletons.

I had a foster dog living with us last year, and though the aggression wasn't bitch v bitch, he was the most dominant dog I've ever come across. Sweet in so many ways, but entirely unpredictable with another dog in his living space. He attacked my dog twice, and ended up biting a woman. My trainer felt I should cut my losses while still ahead, so to speak (the 35lb size difference between Stella and the foster concerned her) and I did not proceed with the anticipated adoption.

As the only dog in a house with two gay men, Murray is now doing superbly.

If nothing can be done with a behaviourist, I hope your friend finds the newer female a great home.

 

[zoesophie]

Thanks Prose - Im sure there are quite a few people who have been through this situ unfortunately.

Glad you had a good outcome - I hope my friend does too

 

[pocomoto]

I recommend your friend watches the Dog Whisperer (Cesar MILAN) on Sky and buys the excellent book that he has written, I got mine from the UK. http://www.cesarmillaninc.com/

From what you are saying it is when your friend is around that they are kicking off, they are competing for her attention and quite simply they are not seeing her as the boss of the outfit. The door thing is obviously fuelled by excitement and the desire to protect her from whoever is outside which is bringing them into competition with each other. Likewise when at play and fetching something.

Letting two bitches of similar size have at it to sort out rank is not an option since bitches will fight to the death on occasions, so some simple rules and boundary changes would bring her pack back into balance. Cesar keeps a large transient pack of dogs at his centre, many of whom are ex fighting pit bulls and he has no problems, he can read a dogs mental state very well and asserts his dominance in a calm manner. I have seen him throw a toy and have 20 dogs run after it with no fighting!

A lot of his philosophy centres around exercise both physical and mental, he likes to give a dog back it’s purpose and drain excess energy.

Some simple changes to her approach to them should bring about a great improvement. Cesar MILAN is not a trainer and is one of the best observers of dog psychology I have seen and he has an ability to put his theories across very simply on a wide variety of problems.

 

[Angua2]

sounds like they are fighting to be dop dog..... muzzel them and let them sort it out. Otherwise it is only going to rumble on forever. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but the only other option is to rehome, and if you don't want to do that you need to let them sort it.