Bitting advice?

ridersince2002

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Just wondered if anyone had any bitting/tack ideas for the pony i ride as ive got my first ever hunter trials/xc on her in a few weeks and some controll would be nice :)
Shes 12.3hh, 16 y/o, short neck, extreeeeemly strong. At the moment shes in a waterford gag with a really tight running martingale and still strong, first few weeks in this bit she was lovely but after a few months shes susssed it out and evades it. She puts her head in the air and opens her mouth. Some people have said try a flash, but i dont think it would help much, only make her worse if im honest because shes so argumentative (and i admit thats probably partly my fault as when i started riding her i was stubborn, argumentative and about 11 so everything had to happen my way :mad: ).

Ive had her in a dutch gag, french link snaffle, jointed kimblewick, wilkie snaffle with sweet iron and all sorts of copper bits and peices on it for her to play with. Nothing seems to work, and i would idealy like to school her out of it but i need controll to school her and at the moment she treats our schooling sessions like a session on the gallops :S
I'll try to put some pictures in but not sure wheather it'll work or not :S
also i like to try and do a bit of local showing with her and cant use a martingale for that, and cant really get away in a waterford snaffle much longer and have been told many times that its not a suitable bit to show her in :p
Gosh this is long!
I think i'll post the pictures as a reply to this as it will only let me put one on :S
 

Bowen4Horses

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i think you'll get a lot of replies that say you need to work on the schooling instead of over-bitting and over-tight training aids... but you've already mentioned that you want to school her out of it, so that's a good start!

the obvious question would be, have you checked she's not in pain? is there a reason why she's evading like that? horses can often stick their head in the air as a way of saying something hurts... x
 

ridersince2002

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Showing in a jointed kimblewick, no martingale, please excuse bad riding, trying to stop her from running up the next horses bum :S
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at my first show in a french link snaffle :S she bolted in 'pony club pony'
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'schooling' recently in a waterford gag and tight martingale
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little angel :) showing in waterford gag, maybe the 4th in it?
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sorry i dont have any pictures of her in a dutch gag :S she wasnt in it for long but im thinking maybe try her in it again soon? not sure
 

Bowen4Horses

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she's VERY pretty!

having a martigale that tight (esp with a harsh bit) will stop it from being effective and will be uncomfortable for her.... it'll also stop you schooling effectively as she won't be able to feel your hands properly. it should work by stopping the pony putting it's head above the point of control... not so the rein has pressure on all the time.... you might find she's fighting against that action.

other than that, she's a very pretty little pony, who i'm sure will do well in some showing classes... now, just sit and wait for the cleverclog bit people on here to give you some advice... :)
 
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First of all, has she has her back, teeth and saddle checked as the first thing I would consider is whether she is comfortable or not.

I would also suggest you try using a flash or what about trying her in a Pelham with double reins?

Is she tanking off with you or is she just leaning on your hands. If she is leaning on your hands you need to give and retake the rein to prevent her from leaning on them. If you just pull against her you will be fighting a losing battle as she will always be stronger than you. if she is tanking off with you, you need to 'check' with the reins to bring her back to you.

I don't think the martingale will be helping matters as you say she is argumentative, therefore she will just fight against it. Does she really need it? Does she throw her head up in the air? She might go better with a flash rather than a martingale.

The most important thing which will improve her the most, is time spent schooling her. Lots of transitions, changes of rein and circles/serpentines etc which help to keep her interested and distract her from trying to argue with you.
 

ridersince2002

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Yep- everything checked and vet/saddler said they were fine.

Its her owner who tightens her martingale everytime she sees me ride saying 'why is it so loose? thats why she keeps tanking off!'

Never ridden with 2 reins before and it looks complicated, but i'll give it a go with supervision :)

When shes not tanking off shes leaning on me, which is why we tryed her in the waterford as it gives her nothing to lean on.
When schooling, transicions wind her up and she doesnt come back to me and tanks off, we can do upwrd transicions fine, its just the downward ones.
Ive recently been working her on a circle and she seems to settle on a circle reasonably well for her :)

Thanks for your help :)

And thank you clipcloppop,, i think so to :) but the judges cant really put a badly behaved pony very high :/
 

martlin

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You need to lengthen that martingale, because it's breaking the line of the rein and actually interferes rather than helps you. Maybe swap for a standing one?
I think I would try a pelham, have a go at 2 reins and if you are struggling, swap for roundings.
 
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I have just looked at your photos and I agree, she is very pretty!

It isn't too tricky once you get used to it, and using two reins means you can ride her off the snaffle rein most of the time and only use the curb when you really need it which will make her respect it more. Make sure you get a good instructor to help teach you how to ride with two reins. Also, I think a Pelham may help as they have a 'lowering action' so this should help discourage her from lifting her head too high.

Good luck! Let us know how you get on! :)
 

ridersince2002

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Found another picture of her in her waterford gag and martingale, this is how tight her martingale looks when shes carrying herself a little better :)
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but looking at it you cant really seee the martingale very well :/

I'll deffiately have an ask around to see if i can borrow a pelham off off anyone, and wheter theyll help me get the hang of it :D
 

zoelouisem

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Found another picture of her in her waterford gag and martingale, this is how tight her martingale looks when shes carrying herself a little better :)
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but looking at it you cant really seee the martingale very well :/

I'll deffiately have an ask around to see if i can borrow a pelham off off anyone, and wheter theyll help me get the hang of it :D

I would definalty do some schooling in a flash is will discourage her opening her mouth its quite open in this picture.:)
 

ridersince2002

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I didnt notice how much she opens her mouth if im honest, ive know that she does it shen having a tantrum but i didnt think she did when she was being 'good' :eek:
Ok, i think i will try a flash, thank you :D
 

ridersince2002

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Also, does anyone have any ideas of what bit i could try her in wen shes in the flash? Or should i stick to this bit? I dont really like the idea of having the waterford mouth peice strapped shut in her mouth as it works by moving about a little :confused:
 

katief

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Also, does anyone have any ideas of what bit i could try her in wen shes in the flash? Or should i stick to this bit? I dont really like the idea of having the waterford mouth peice strapped shut in her mouth as it works by moving about a little :confused:

I use a waterford gag + flash on my shared ish and it seems to be ok? So try it if you feel happy with it! However how now moved onto a tom thumb + grakle when jumping for some extra control..
 

ridersince2002

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Ah ok, i was going to try a tom thumb but then i saw my friends perfect little pony who could be ridden in a snaffle with no problems in it so thought it was going to be too soft for her :S but my 'friend' does seem to like to look like her pony is the naugtiest thing and has all the gadgets (big flashy bits, tight martingales, un needed flash/grakle, always carrys a schooling whip ect) so that she looks like a good rider when she gets on and has a session where the pony doesnt put a foot wrong :( poor pony :mad:

I just wasnt sure about the waterford and a flash, so thank you :D
Might try a tom thumb aswell :)
 

martlin

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Found another picture of her in her waterford gag and martingale, this is how tight her martingale looks when shes carrying herself a little better :)
picture.php


but looking at it you cant really seee the martingale very well :/

I'll deffiately have an ask around to see if i can borrow a pelham off off anyone, and wheter theyll help me get the hang of it :D

The martingale is to short:) You need to fit it so it reaches the ponies throat when the head is in normal position.
 

ridersince2002

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ok, thank you :) shes the first pony ive ever had to ride in a martingale for, and if im completely honest, before i started riding her i rode (and still do ride) crazy arabs or a horrid little sec a in a snaffle (the get upset if they feel 'over bitted') so if im doing anything else wrong tack-wise then let me know :)

might get her saddle checked again as shes getting worse and also changing shape as shes lost ALOT of weight, she used to be a laminetic fatty and now shes a fit little pony :D but i thought that if shes getting worse and changing shape then getting it checked cant hurt?
 

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Yes, I would get the everything checked again, maybe by a 2nd opinion? If she's opening her mouth IMO she's telling you that she is uncomfortable. I certainly wouldn't use a flash, IMO all that does is mask the symptoms, without curing the problem. I would suggest a Pelham but tbh I wouldn't recommend roundings, you lose the action.
Going on your photos, I would also suggest shortening your stirrups, which would make your seat more effective, then you could push her up into the bit, rather than trying to pull her back. As others have said, don't get into a pulling match with her -she will win as she is stronger!
Do you have a good instructor to help you with your schooling? If not it would be a good idea to find one - maybe ask on here for recommendations.
 

YorksG

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Echo try a pelham, with two reins, I would also echo putting your stirrups ups a hole. If you go with the pelham, you will have to push her into it for it to work well in stopping her getting her head up and sugaring off! I would also suggest that for a while try all your schooling in walk (I know it's boring :p ) When you are happy that she is listening in walk, move on to trot, with the downward transitions. Try using lots of cones, poles on the floor and many changes of direction to keep the sessions interesting. :)
 

OneInAMillion

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She could possibly be fighting against the martingale and bit. However I dont really want to say too much as I dont know what either of you are like without seeing you!
 

ridersince2002

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Thank you everyone, youve all been great for giving me ideas :D :D

Ive had a few lessons with an instructor she put her in this bit and had her in draw reins in our first lesson, she had a go riding her and said i should not bother showing her as shes too much of a handfull and to just stick to jumping. Not really what i was expecting, i was sort of after a hand getting a bit more controll rather than just bitting her up and being told to stick to jumping and hacking :S

Ive been keeping my eyes open for a better instructor, but ive been quite busy so im thinking a nice course of lessons with a good instructor over winter :D
 

flyingfeet

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Ok - firstly I'd try a kineton noseband before closing her mouth - she is running by poking her nose and lifting her head.

Therefore a pelham with two reins would be a good bit to reschool in, and you do get used to 2 reins quite quickly

The other thing you could try is a strap on your current bit, a spur strap or flash strap is ideal. Loop through the top rings, so there is high up curb pressure.
 

ridersince2002

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Schooled her yesterday and tried a few different bits (jsut the ones we've got that ive already used) in her just so see which ones were best, what she prefered ect, and i think shes the same in pretty much most of them, if she wants to go she'll go! Also loosend the martingale and she did seem to be fighting it less, so thank you everyone who told me it was too tight :)

I think i'll definately try a pelham, but ive had her in a curb chain in the kimblewick (although it wasnt as strong as the one you suggested) but she didnt really seem to like it at all, i think that was the bit she was worst in, will try the curb, hopefull have some results :)
 

suzi

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One thing that maybe worth trying is to see how the bit fits in her mouth?

My Connie has a very small mouth ie when he closes his mouth there is only a very small space for the bit to go. When I got him he used to open his mouth loads as he was in avery chunky fat snaffle that he couldn't actually close his mouth over.

Before we knew this I was told to put a flash on to keep his mouth shut and this made him worse as it was obviously painful for him to have his mouth completely closed with the bit pushing on the bars of his mouth.

I switched to a really fine snaffle (was slated by YO at the time who was adament I should just strap his mouth shut) and this fit his mouth much better and he was much happier.

Does sound like bit / martingale evasion to me so I'd have a look in her mouth when she's got the bit in and see what it looks like. Is it too high and banging her teeth? Or too low?

Good idea to loosen the martingale too.

Difficult to see from the photos whether any of the above may be applicable to you but maybe worth a try!

Good luck - she's a very pretty pony! How old is she?
 

ridersince2002

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Shes 16 so should really have learnt to behave by now :p
Recently at a show when she was being a crazy beast the judge was shocked when i said shes 16 and she said that she was acting more like a 5 year old :eek:.. didnt get placed in that class :rolleyes:

Shes also got fairly a small mouth so we have smaller mouthpeices but she hates it when its really small- shes sort of a medium size for a pony if you know what i mean? :S
I think i've got the bit at the right height in her mouth, shes a pleasure to tack up and never refuses the bit (i was told that if their not happy in their mouth when being ridden they will refuse to open their mouth for the bit or something)

BUT i rode her in a french link snaffle yesterday and she seemed happiest in that and with a little persuation she even had her head down nicely in a balanced trot :D :D i think she prefered the simpler bit for a change and i think im going to do a bit fo schooling in that for a while and only change bit if i need some extra controll if we go somewhere exciting :)
:D So pleased with her and im hoping it wasnt a one off as she does seem to have one offs from time to time :rolleyes:

If im honest id rather not strap her mouth shut with a flash as id rather her wanting to go nicely than being forced too, and if it is because shes uncomfortable then opening her mouth is her way of showing it, so im deffinatley getting everything checked again :)
 

BuzzyBee13

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Sorry, not had chance to read the whole thread, if your sure the bit isnt too far down in her mouth, then you could try a jointed pelham with a curb chain? They worked wonders for our pony, it puts pressure on the poll and if she bolts then the curb chain will come into play. Hope this helps, some schooling would be good aswell, and you could try, when she bolts, let her and make the reins very loose, so she learns you not going to fight her :)
 

HeatherJ

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hey :)
wow, your pony sounds like my pony's double! :-O
mine was ridden in a gag mostly by previous owners but came to me in a snaffle(from different owner who was stronger and obviously didn't have a problem holding on to her as only really did jumping) didn't take me too long to realise that an 11 year old girl like me was never going to be able to stop in a snaffle!
so we put her back in a gag and went like a totally different pony! but gradually over time the gag became less and less effective, have tried loads of different bits but finally went back and tried her in the plain snaffle again and through doing lots of flatwork at home and dressage competitions she finally starting to come round!

so yeap you could try just going back to a simpler/kinder bit and just work on it? :)

sorry this is thh only help i can give
H. x
 
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