bitting and pulling - what do you put up with?

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Starbucks

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Just been thinking..

There's always a lot of talk on here about bits and gadgets with some people saying horses should be well schooled enough to go in a snaffle and other people saying it's better to give a light touch on a strong bit than haulling in a snaffle etc..

Anyway! Think I fall into the hauling on a snaffle brigade, not because I'm against strong bits or anything but if I'm jumping I don't want anything in their mouth that might make them back off and I seem to struggle to get much success with swapping around, so just stick with the snaffle and a hard work horse! My mum on the other hand is quite happy to stick in whatever will stop them, and doesn't seem too bothered about "over bitting".

Just wondered what other peoples approach is, so when people say a horse is "snaffle mouthed" what does that actually mean? My horse does everything in a snaffle but he's not exactly what springs to mind when you think of a "snaffle mouthed" horse!

Thoughts?
 
its a difficult one. my first hunting pony, i could hunt in a snaffle but she would pull my arms off and be a pain. so i generally hunted in a gag and it was much easier and manageable. you could XC her in a snaffle but again, its a strong ride and its unpleasent. so you could say, she was a snaffle mouth as she was 'manageable' in a snaffle but i wouldnt class her as snaffle mouth. she was much better in a gag for fast work. where as my cob, is a true snaffle mouth. you could put whatever you wanted in his mouth and he wouldnt pull you.

in terms on my hunting mare, i supose you could say i over bitted her. but i think she got more benifit out of it as i wasnt holding on to her so much as i knew i had breaks. but if i put my cob in a gag, i would be over bitting. i guess its just personal prefrence at the end of the day.
 
I won't jump my boy in anything other than a snaffle as I worry about catching him. Same with the others in their double bridles - I won't jump them in it for the same reason as most of them jump rather bigger than anticipated!

But for schooling, I'll generally have my boy in his twisted snaffle, as he doesn't like any other kind of snaffles I've found.

For the others, I much prefer schooling them in their doubles [once they've had a few weeks in work in their snaffles first and going forwards properly etc]. But they are show horses and just work better in their doubles, even though you don't need to touch the second rein at any point.

For ones which pull, lean etc...then I'll happily change the bit accordingly. For horrid little snatchers/pullers etc, then a nice ported one will be first choice in there for one or two rides!
Not a gag fan personally though.

Though all that said, the best round of show jumping we ever did was still in our show kit [Double, show saddle, loose girth....etc!]....got out only ever double clear and placed so maybe I should more haha!
 
In my simpleton terms, you seem to get 3 types of horses:
1) those that are just not strong (all good)
2) those with a hard mouth and you can bit them up to the eyeballs and doesn't have much effect
3) those that actually have quite a soft mouth but still want to be strong in certain situations

Most horses will probably fall into the 3 category and I just find it a bit mind boggling as to what will suit!!
 
just thought of another example (this topic interests me greatly as you can tell..) a horse on the yard (really cobby type, plods along, lovely horse) who is currently in a pelham. first thoughts, id say hes compleatly over bitted (i have ridden him and refused to ride him in his pelham and had him in a snaffle and he was fine) however his owner isnt confident. she doesnt 'ride', she sits on top, has him on the buckle and they wonder round the village. it suits them fine and he doesnt really have a contact anyway so doesnt matter. but it gives her the confidence to ride out knowing if annything happenes, she has breaks. so in a way, yes he is over bitted, but is it a bad thing, im not really sure. they are both as happy as larry doing their daily plod. so i guess its fine.
 
BSJAlove said:
just thought of another example (this topic interests me greatly as you can tell..) a horse on the yard (really cobby type, plods along, lovely horse) who is currently in a pelham. first thoughts, id say hes compleatly over bitted (i have ridden him and refused to ride him in his pelham and had him in a snaffle and he was fine) however his owner isnt confident. she doesnt 'ride', she sits on top, has him on the buckle and they wonder round the village. it suits them fine and he doesnt really have a contact anyway so doesnt matter. but it gives her the confidence to ride out knowing if annything happenes, she has breaks. so in a way, yes he is over bitted, but is it a bad thing, im not really sure. they are both as happy as larry doing their daily plod. so i guess its fine.
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What a nice change that you are not making judgements! But then you are a forester lover so that explains it!!
 
BSJAlove said:
just thought of another example (this topic interests me greatly as you can tell..) a horse on the yard (really cobby type, plods along, lovely horse) who is currently in a pelham. first thoughts, id say hes compleatly over bitted (i have ridden him and refused to ride him in his pelham and had him in a snaffle and he was fine) however his owner isnt confident. she doesnt 'ride', she sits on top, has him on the buckle and they wonder round the village. it suits them fine and he doesnt really have a contact anyway so doesnt matter. but it gives her the confidence to ride out knowing if annything happenes, she has breaks. so in a way, yes he is over bitted, but is it a bad thing, im not really sure. they are both as happy as larry doing their daily plod. so i guess its fine.
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Yeah why not, if it works for them, but suppose some might say if she's not really a rider a should she have a stronger bit? Doesn't sound like it really matters.
 
Starbucks said:
Yeah why not, if it works for them, but suppose some might say if she's not really a rider a should she have a stronger bit? Doesn't sound like it really matters.
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very true but some might also question why she rides on the roads when she so nervous. with a pelham in, shes a different rider, very relaxed and totally on the ball. with a snaffle in, shes tence and nervous, que a jumpy horse and a fair few jabs in the mouth. a pelham works best for them. but ovsiously there are lots of cases where people over bit, which is a shame, especally when you see a hard jab to the mouth in a horrible bit :(
 
To me, pelhams used correctly with 2 reins, aren't strong bits anyway. Top rein is essentially no different to a straight bar snaffle until the 2nd rein is used and the curb is kicked in anyway. I tend to not have our cobs in snaffles, they all go in pelhams, just purely I find they go better in them. Works for us so as long as the horses are happy what does it matter in my mind :) Bit like saddles....choose them to fit the horse not the other way round.
 
I'm a firm believer that most horses can be ridden in a form of snaffle. Obviously there are exceptions. I'm so reliant on snaffles now because when I had a very naughty, strong but talented pony I had several instructors tell me that I needed her in a strong bit, standing martingale, etc. Through a process of trial and error I soon realised that anything stronger than a french link sent her straight up in the air so I kept her snaffle. She was still nightmarishly strong but she had all four legs on the ground. For xc I used a dutch gag simply so I wasn't hanging on her mouth all the way round. Most said that I under-bitted her - I knew differently.

However, I think I need to widen my bitting range with my Welshie. He is built quite downhill and his previous owner just let him lean so he has a very tough mouth. His self-carriage has improved enormously because he is never allowed to lean, but his mouth is still very hard. I really fancy a Neue Schule but they are very pricey :(
 
My hunter goes in a snaffle normally but having done a few years hunting hounds she can be strong in the field, especially at the start of the season. This year I kept her in the snaffle, VictoriaEDT came to do her teeth and she was really bruised in her mouth where she'd been pulling so much :( She's now back in the gag and both of us are happier! I'd say she was similar to Badger really and she hates a curb bit but does go well in the gag hunting and doesn't back off jumps :) She'll be back in the snaffle once the hunting season is over though.
 
Snaffle for my girl - sometimes she is a strong and ignorant madam and will not respond to a downwards transition with it (virtually all of yesterdays lesson was entirely trot and canter work as her maj wouldn't trot to walk - so she just got to work extra, trot to walk by the end of the session came beautifully!) but with anything even the smallest bit stronger and she won't go willingly forward in it, is always ducking behind the contact and won't take a consistent contact with it.

So for us the choice is a snaffle (ns verbind loose ring) and more schooling to get her listening and respecting being asked nicely!

The pelham for the hacking lady doesn't sound like overbitting as it sounds like it is barely used! - if she hauled away on a pelham like you see some do with a snaffle then that would be different I think, but if it works so well for them then who can find fault tbh?! Who doesn't like brakes, esp if hacking on the roads!
 
Much as I love to see horses going nicely in snaffles, I'm of the school of thought which says "why haul on your horses mouth in a snaffle, when you could touch them in a stronger bit and get the same result?!".

Most of mine go in snaffles, and, like Binky, are schooled in double bridles as I like to have the curb rein to fall back on. However, my 25yr old Roy is a nightmare in anything other than a Tom Thumb gag.

He's much more relaxed in it in every way - softer, easier to tack up (doesn't require several strong men to get the bridle on, he now actually opens his gob!), lighter in my hands, more forward off the leg, no longer backs off fences, the list is endless!

I think there's a time and a place for stronger bits than snaffles, but I HATE to be hauling on something in one if I could have it in something stronger...
 
Bits are only "strong" in the hands of the rider - the horse is not the one who takes up the contact. Just because they have curb chains, ports, or a lever action (or all three) only gives them the potential to be strong.

We have a lovely forward going hunter, who is an absolute delight and could be ridden by a child in a headcollar..... out hacking. Out hunting however, I hunt him in a mullen mouth pelham, my OH hunts him in a cheltenham gag with a kineton noseband. He likes to run with his head on the floor and ignore the rider.

I don't expect a soft and complaint mouth out hunting, in fact I'd rather have something that took a hold into a hedge and took me to it, rather than me having to kick, but I do expect that when I ask for the horse to slow down, I get a reasonably instant response, not him sticking his hooves in his ears and singing to himself (above horse in snaffle!!)
 
spacefaer said:
Bits are only "strong" in the hands of the rider - the horse is not the one who takes up the contact. Just because they have curb chains, ports, or a lever action (or all three) only gives them the potential to be strong.

We have a lovely forward going hunter, who is an absolute delight and could be ridden by a child in a headcollar..... out hacking. Out hunting however, I hunt him in a mullen mouth pelham, my OH hunts him in a cheltenham gag with a kineton noseband. He likes to run with his head on the floor and ignore the rider.

I don't expect a soft and complaint mouth out hunting, in fact I'd rather have something that took a hold into a hedge and took me to it, rather than me having to kick, but I do expect that when I ask for the horse to slow down, I get a reasonably instant response, not him sticking his hooves in his ears and singing to himself (above horse in snaffle!!)
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I agree with the last bit, I'd find it strange if a horse didn't take a bit of a hold hunting and kind of like them to take me along a bit, it's just when you are careering past the FM it become a bit of an issue! My horse has actually been fine this season in his snaffle I'm hoping he's getting well behaved in his old age!

Your comments have made me think about why I seem to have issues with my hunting/XC and stronger bits. He has never stopped or actually done anything wrong with his jumping in a stronger bit (had an american gag at one point with 2 reins - which I could actually stop in) but in his snaffle he will really take me into fences, where as he didn't so much in the AG? Maybe I didn't adjust my riding enough to compensate for the bit.

Tried other things in between by the way, but they never seemed to have any added effect from the snaffle.
 
In an ideal world, everything would go in a snaffle with no gadgets. But its not an ideal world (and who decided a snaffle would be right for EVERY horse's size and shape of mouth anyway?), so I'd rather see horses go in the least severe bit/gadgets that suit them. I'd prefer not to have to argue constantly with a horse. Sometimes I find that I have to "up" a cheeky horse's bit for a few weeks, then it can easily return to a snaffle again (quite often this time of year when they're in a lot, or when the spring grass comes through and its the first pc rally of the year!) My mare goes in a snaffle 90% of the time, but I wouldn't dream of going XC in anything other than a cheltenham gag - as I'd like to get round alive! The "not taking you to a fence anymore" feeling in a gag is a good example of when you're holding too much - often because you're used to having a tug of war in a snaffle.

What really does worry me, is when people come on here asking for (and I presume taking) advice from complete strangers about what bit to put in, when these people that they are asking have never seen how their horse goes and they (the asker) are obviously novice (well meaning, but unable to know good advice from bad). If the bit change comes because of advice from a regular and/or experienced instructor, then its ok.
 
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