Blackmore and Sparkford Vale Hunt Point-to-Point

[Judgemental]

A new dimension of those opposed to hunting was demonstrated at the Blackmore and Sparkford Vale Hunt Point-to-Point on Sunday at Charlton Horethorne Somerset.

The link to the Western Daily Press 'take' on the situation clearly and graphically describes the issue involving huntsman Mr Mark Doggrell and a protestor some months ago in August 2014 out 'cub hunting'. Although I doubt very much if anything was taking place other than within the law of the 2004 Hunting Act. The protestor apparently suffered very serious injuries, yet the matter has not found it's way into the courts.

Had it done so, then all the facts would have been aired and a clear outcome would be sustained.

http://www.westerndailypress.co.uk/Angry-scenes-hunt-demo/story-26138701-detail/story.html

Instead a huge number of people feel aggrieved that the matter is unresolved judging by the petition that is in play and the fact over 100 people were prepared to travel to rural Somerset over the matter.

Undoubtedly this is going to generate on-going demonstrations for a variety of hunts - not just the Blackmore and Sparkford Vale.

Those aggrieved have shown they can muster support from all over the UK and left all those at the Point-to-Point in no doubt there is a problem.

Indeed I am told by people at the Point-to-Point that their whole day was, as a result, most unenjoyable bearing in mind the demonstrators were photographing just about everybody there and their vehicles which generated serious anxiety.

I would speculate this issue is going to keep coming to the surface at Point-To-Points generally until it is resolved.

On a slightly different tack, if repeal of the Hunting Act were to happen I suggest this type of demonstration will be become a problem.

 

[twiggy2]

maybe the CPS need to reconsider and publicise there findings and reasons for any outcome they may come to

 

[Countryman]

I have heard very different reports JM. Apparently the Point to Point was a great success, and yes - although hunt saboteurs from all over the UK attended, there were still less than 60 of them, demonstrating how low their numbers are.

 

[Alec Swan]

maybe the CPS need to reconsider and publicise there findings and reasons for any outcome they may come to

An interesting and useful point. When those who would defend the common man, elect to follow through, or not, with the hopes of others, a simple statement as to their reasoning may well be useful. 'Damned if you do or you don't' springs to mind though! For all that, 'Justice' is the right of all.

Considering the lady who glories under the handle of Nid (strange that she hasn't been publicly identified; ALL who contravene the Hunting Act, are), then any major injury is to be regretted. Those who would attempt to in any way sabotage any legally carried out activity, should they put themselves at risk have only themselves to blame should they happen upon self inflicted wounds. As others have said, that a horse would be intentionally 'ridden over' a standing obstacle, is ridiculous in the extreme. The risks to horse and rider would be obvious, and whilst those who carry out a trespassed, self righteous and illegal activity, despite from what I hear that the incident was an accident, none the less, when placing themselves in a position of danger, have only themselves to blame when they are injured.

Just out of interest, and considering the sab referred to as 'Nid', is there any official account of her injuries, or is the unfortunate person being once again used as a means of support by those without any form of moral conscience?

Alec.

 

[twiggy2]

I have heard very different reports JM. Apparently the Point to Point was a great success, and yes - although hunt saboteurs from all over the UK attended, there were still less than 60 of them, demonstrating how low their numbers are.

I think the numbers will grow and they wont all be hunt sabs, I am not a hunt sab but do feel strongly that from the evidence I have seen regarding the incident when Mark Doggrell ran the woman down should be investigated further-if this sort of action is what it takes to make the CPS accept this case then I think the momentum will grow on this one. Surely for those that support hunting this would be good too because if he is innocent of GBH then their case is made, if not then they have supported justice and may receive more public support.
It does seem to be politics that will win the public voted for or against hunting, unfortunately both sides often seem to think they are above the law and decent behaviour, I don't like fox hunting but can let it go, there are lots of things I feel like that about in life, I don't particularly like foxes either TBH-they are a pain in the butt I let that go too.
I do honestly believe that those that try to exist outside of the law do them selves and those around them no favours and I do not understand why the hunt have not been more pro active in condemming the houndsman in this instance. at best he took no avoiding action at the time of the incident and made no effort to stop, at worst he intentionally ran someone down using his mount as a weapon.. either way it should be investigated he needs to be cleared or charged not the whole incident being swept under the carpet it does no-one any favours

 

[twiggy2]

An interesting and useful point. When those who would defend the common man, elect to follow through, or not, with the hopes of others, a simple statement as to their reasoning may well be useful. 'Damned if you do or you don't' springs to mind though! For all that, 'Justice' is the right of all.

Considering the lady who glories under the handle of Nid (strange that she hasn't been publicly identified; ALL who contravene the Hunting Act, are), then any major injury is to be regretted. Those who would attempt to in any way sabotage any legally carried out activity, should they put themselves at risk have only themselves to blame should they happen upon self inflicted wounds. As others have said, that a horse would be intentionally 'ridden over' a standing obstacle, is ridiculous in the extreme. The risks to horse and rider would be obvious, and whilst those who carry out a trespassed, self righteous and illegal activity, despite from what I hear that the incident was an accident, none the less, when placing themselves in a position of danger, have only themselves to blame when they are injured.

Just out of interest, and considering the sab referred to as 'Nid', is there any official account of her injuries, or is the unfortunate person being once again used as a means of support by those without any form of moral conscience?

Alec.

your final one is an interesting point Alec, one I shall look into.
out of interest, have you seen the video of Nid and the horse 'colliding'?

 

[Alec Swan]

…….. from the evidence I have seen regarding the incident when Mark Doggrell ran the woman down ……..

Are you suggesting that the actions of the rider were intentional? Have you ever attempted to ride a horse at a fixed object, and one which it which it can avoid?

Alec.

 

[Alec Swan]

……..
out of interest, have you seen the video of Nid and the horse 'colliding'?

Cross posting! No, I've said that I haven't seen the piece of film, but I'd like to. Could you post it on here?

Alec.

 

[twiggy2]

Well Alec a link I cannot do as it is far exceeding my computer skills but pop the following into the search bar on youtube...

Blackmore & Sparkford Vale Huntsman Mark Doggrell runs over a Hunt Saboteur

it is not nice viewing

 

[twiggy2]

Are you suggesting that the actions of the rider were intentional? Have you ever attempted to ride a horse at a fixed object, and one which it which it can avoid?

Alec.

I have never tried to ride a horse at a fixed object Alec no, however working with many difficult/spoiled horses over the years I have met lots that are quite happy to run through or over people-the horse does try to avoid the sab but the rider? I shall leave you to watch the video and see any evidence of him taking avoiding action because I can see non

 

[Alec Swan]

…….., however working with many difficult/spoiled horses over the years I have met lots that are quite happy to run through or over people-the horse does try to avoid the sab but the rider? ……..

Hunt horses, by their very definition, tend not to be difficult or 'spoiled'. As you say, the horse and probably the rider too attempted to avoid the obstacle which was in their immediate path. Had the person presented themselves in the middle of an 'Event' course and when the horse and rider were negotiating a blind corner, what would our reaction be?

I've now managed to source the relevant footage, thank you. Watching the vid in slo-mo, I would be staggered to hear that the injuries claimed were factual. The horse didn't go 'over' the injured person, but knocked them to one side. The name of the person who was trespassing and attempting to interfere with a perfectly legal activity, has been withheld, though God knows why, and we can only assume that the injuries which were actually inflicted, were not as those which are claimed. 'Bigging it up' could be one interpretation.

Alec.

 

[Apercrumbie]

Just watched the video. Not good behaviour on the huntsman's part, pretty outrageous actually. He didn't even look back to see if she was ok. It doesn't matter how awful sabs can be, it doesn't matter that she was standing in a silly place, he should a)not be going so fast through a tiny space and b) act like a human being and help her. Shocking.

 

[Alec Swan]

…….. and b) act like a human being and help her. Shocking.

The reports have it that the rider actually directed the attending ambulance service to the 'stricken' saboteur.

Alec.

 

[twiggy2]

Hunt horses, by their very definition, tend not to be difficult or 'spoiled'. As you say, the horse and probably the rider too attempted to avoid the obstacle which was in their immediate path. Had the person presented themselves in the middle of an 'Event' course and when the horse and rider were negotiating a blind corner, what would our reaction be?

I've now managed to source the relevant footage, thank you. Watching the vid in slo-mo, I would be staggered to hear that the injuries claimed were factual. The horse didn't go 'over' the injured person, but knocked them to one side. The name of the person who was trespassing and attempting to interfere with a perfectly legal activity, has been withheld, though God knows why, and we can only assume that the injuries which were actually inflicted, were not as those which are claimed. 'Bigging it up' could be one interpretation.

Alec.

I am surprised (disappointed) with/at you Alec, I said nothing about the rider 'taking' avoiding action as I do not believe he did but you post as if I inferred he did (I apologise if this is in error), I am also disappointed in your reference to a blind corner when there is no evidence that there is a corner let alone a blind one, there is also no proof that the hunt were hunting legally and others would in fact disagree with that, as for the extent of the injuries at this stage who knows? maybe they are as stated and it was the force of the impact that caused them.

It is the fact that things are clouded that for me means the CPS should take the case it, it could be good for everyone.

I have worked with many a bolshy/pushy/rude/walk/spoiled/difficult all over you hunt horse over the years have worked with many lovely ones too though, that they hunt does not mean they are nice horses, what is the definition of a Hunt horse?

 

[twiggy2]

The reports have it that the rider actually directed the attending ambulance service to the 'stricken' saboteur.

Alec.

I read it was the hunt master who was not riding on the day not the huntsman in the clip, and that is how it should be a person who knows the lay of the land helping emergency services it is normal human behaviour nothing to be applauded for.

 

[Alec Swan]

……... As you say, the horse and probably the rider too attempted to avoid the obstacle ……..

Alec.

I agreed with you, and added that from what I saw, the rider also attempted to avoid the obstacle in his path. Riding 'AT' a human, as I'm sure you will accept, could all so easily result in serious injury to both the horse, and the rider.

I am surprised (disappointed) with/at you Alec, I said nothing about the rider 'taking' avoiding action as I don not believe he did but you post as if I inferred he did (I apologise if this is in error), ……..,

……..there is also no proof that the hunt were hunting legally and others would in fact disagree with that, as for the extent of the injuries at this stage who knows? maybe they are as stated and it was the force of the impact that caused them.

It is the fact that things are clouded that for me means the CPS should take the case it, it could be good for everyone

Para 1. It remains my belief that despite the suddenness of finding a pedestrian in his path, the rider attempted to avoid them. Be as disappointed as you wish.

Para 2. With evidence of illegal hunting, then you would have a point. Without such evidence, then the stated claim of those who ride to Hounds has to be accepted. Courts don't deal with what 'May' have been in the mind of those who they prosecute, but in the evidence which is placed before them

Par 3. The CPS decided against prosecution. I agree that if they offered an explanation, so the matter would have been cleared up, excepting of course, that those who set out to illegally trespass and to disrupt legally held activities, would offer red-herings in an attempt to claim favour.

Alec.

 

[Alec Swan]

I read it was the hunt master who was not riding on the day not the huntsman in the clip, and that is how it should be a person who knows the lay of the land helping emergency services it is normal human behaviour nothing to be applauded for.

'nothing to be applauded for'? Are you really being serious? Had whoever assisted offered no assistance, is that what you'd have preferred, and to support your case?

Alec.

 

[twiggy2]

'nothing to be applauded for'? Are you really being serious? Had whoever assisted offered no assistance, is that what you'd have preferred, and to support your case?

Alec.

I am saying that in my mind it is just what you do, he did not risk life and limb, he directed emergency services to someone who needed them-it is normal behaviour not exceptional but normal decent human behaviour, something i would expect any normal decent human being to do.

 

[twiggy2]

'nothing to be applauded for'? Are you really being serious? Had whoever assisted offered no assistance, is that what you'd have preferred, and to support your case?

Alec.

I will have to continue looking later, I was reading reports and one came up stating that the non riding hunt master directed the air ambulance in, every report I have seen states that the mounted huntsman continued to ride-I will return to this after riding

 

[twiggy2]

I agreed with you, and added that from what I saw, the rider also attempted to avoid the obstacle in his path. Riding 'AT' a human, as I'm sure you will accept, could all so easily result in serious injury to both the horse, and the rider.



Para 1. It remains my belief that despite the suddenness of finding a pedestrian in his path, the rider attempted to avoid them. Be as disappointed as you wish.

Alec.

I am not disappointed at you opinion Alec, who am I to judge, it was the way it was written and the inference that it was my opinion too

 

[ester]

I didn't see her in the video until after she was knocked over, and I wasn't on a horse travelling at speed (whom you would have heard coming). So I do see nothing but an accident. I would have liked to have seen the rider stop afterwards but we don't know that he wasn't going to a critical situation elsewhere and knew that the lady wasn't alone so would receive help. He presumably would also be unsure of the reception he would get if he did stop/dismount etc.
If she was known by her name perhaps a letter apologising after the incident could have been sent.

 

[Dunlin]

I've already posted in the other thread running on this entitled "Hysterical" so I won't copy over what I wrote, all I will say is I have heard a lot of different stories about this now. Some say the hospital had a hard time getting rid of the woman and that she had no injuries at all, other stories state she almost died from her injuries and stopped breathing at the scene. Some say (I am starting to sound like Jeremy Clarkson introducing The Stig) that the hunt and followers obstructed the land ambulance from getting to the patient, some say the hunt helped direct the land ambulance and phoned an air ambulance due to location. It's all hearsay, all of it until/if there is an official hearing where evidence shall be called upon which will surely include a hospital report to state injuries received and witness statements from both the land and air ambulance which attended.

 

[ester]

From the video I was impressed that the videographer was able to announce from that distance (while calling the ambulance) that she was unconcious... They also implied they needed an air ambulance due to the seriousness of the event when in reality they are often sent to outdoor situations a bit off the beaten track.

 

[Lizzie66]

Wasn't there on the day so can only speculate, however it is highly probable that if the huntsman was travelling quickly through gateways, gaps between vehicles, pedestrians etc. then he needed to be somewhere in a hurry. Hounds may have left the laid scent and he would be in breach of the law to allow them to continue once he became aware of it. He would also have known (or made sure) that followers behind would have stepped in to help.
I would agree that efforts should have been made to after the fact to offer apologies to the lady concerned, however it might not have been that easy to locate her and the police may well have suggested that he stay away.
Videos taken from one angle do not give the whole picture (how many times do you see slo-mo video of sports events and still not be able to be 100%) or give any indication as to intent.
The CPS have reviewed the evidence and have obviously decided that there is insufficient evidence to proceed in prosecuting the huntsman with an offence. If they can't prove intent then it is an accident and if an accident then unless he had some level of duty of care to this person (which sounds unlikely) then he is not guilty of an offence. An air ambulance was called and either he or his representative helped I directing the emergency services to this person.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Just watched the video. Not good behaviour on the huntsman's part, pretty outrageous actually. He didn't even look back to see if she was ok. It doesn't matter how awful sabs can be, it doesn't matter that she was standing in a silly place, he should a)not be going so fast through a tiny space and b) act like a human being and help her. Shocking.

This. What a kn0b.

Anyone with half a conscience would have immediately pulled up to see how the casualty was. Oh no, I'm forgetting, the hunt must come first....

 

[Countryman]

This. What a kn0b.

Anyone with half a conscience would have immediately pulled up to see how the casualty was. Oh no, I'm forgetting, the hunt must come first....

It's easy to say, but if you had a pack of hounds that you needed to be with, perhaps with busy roads or railways nearby, you might feel differently, and let the many people nearby look after them, particularly if you a) knew many hunt protestors in the past had feigned injury and b) most pertinently, were concerned at the prospect of going back towards an angry group of people who may or may not have had iron bars, balaclavas and potentially violent intent.

 

[Doormouse]

This. What a kn0b.

Anyone with half a conscience would have immediately pulled up to see how the casualty was. Oh no, I'm forgetting, the hunt must come first....

I have just watched the video clip again with a friend who pointed out that the horse actually jumps the puddle in the gateway. it is just possible that due to this action by the horse that the huntsman was unaware that he had collided with someone.

Before you all shout at me, just watch it again with this in mind.

 

[Cinnamontoast]

I have heard very different reports JM. Apparently the Point to Point was a great success, and yes - although hunt saboteurs from all over the UK attended, there were still less than 60 of them, demonstrating how low their numbers are.

Find Sabinder on Facebook. Very objective views. I hear that this day was billed by the sabs as a great family day out, but several families turned tail when confronted by multiple flying obscenities from masked sabs. Nice.

If the CPS has decided not to proceed, there's not much that can be done. It's nothing to do with the police, CPS decide to prosecute or not, many reasons, but cost is an issue, as is successs criteria. If it has been deemed an accident, they simply won't proceed.

 

[farmer chunk]

If you look at video closely you can see lady next to person called nid push her arm back to push mid back

 

[farmer chunk]

If you watch video closely you can see the person next to nid push her back with her arm