Blood letting for lami?

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Just to add to R's still undiagnosed neurological problems, now Cakey has lami!

The poor boy is very poorly and has not responded at all to initial treatment (anti-inflammatories, painkillers), in fact he is worse now than two days ago. The vet says the only thing he can try now is to put in a line and take blood out. I don't know how much blood but he seemed to suggest a substantial amount.

Has anyone ever heard of this as a treatment for lami? I've never heard of it although that doesn't mean much! Is there anything else we should be doing (obviously he is off the grass and on restricted quantities of hay only).
 
Sorry to hear this.
Maybe here in France its something that happens.
I have seen a pony here with a big section cut out of its hoof here, not seen that in the uk.
Wishing you well and hope you can get answers.
JC
 
Thanks JC. I am beginning to feel cursed!

The vet is proposing to take the blood from a neck vein. I assume that the reduction in blood volume might help the lami but never heard of anything like it before. The poor boy is on three legs whereas on Wednesday he could still walk. I don't know what to do!
 
It is a very old method that would have been used before they knew any better, it goes with firing and using leeches, although leeches have come back into use for some issues.

I would give the pony longer to respond to management changes, get xrays done to see if there is rotation which needs support from outside, imprints or just frog supports may help, is he in a really deeply bedded shavings box? are you soaking his hay for 12-16 hours?
Depending on how bad it is he may take a few weeks to become more comfortable, blood tests for metabolic issues should be considered.


There is no way I would let the vet do this to my pony:eek:.
 
Thank you, I am inclined to agree!

I can't find any evidence for blood letting other than its being an old fashioned response to lami with no evidence base.

I will go chat to the vet again and suggest he gives me some ACP which he hasn't so far. This may help more than blood letting.

He is in a small pen in his field otherwise he would get very upset (and kick his stable door endlessly) but I have made a deep bed out there. He is currently unshod and I don't think he is stable enough on three legs now to put shoes back on but the farrier is coming on Tuesday. I will talk to the vet about x-rays because he seems very bad to me.

I don't have much experience with lami but the few cases I have seen responded well to initial meds. He is A LOT worse after two days so I am a bit concerned.
 
So sorry to hear your pony has lami - it is a hateful condition. I agree with be positive - I would be bedding deep and getting xrays - soaking hay and testing for Cushings.
You may be able to tape pads onto the feet - the vet should advise for suport. Mine use a putty like substance on the bak half of the foot and then vetwrap and duck tape it on. I wouldn't be blood letting either.

Good luck OP.
 
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Thanks Yas. The vet is over this afternoon, I will body block the blood letting and see if he can do a blood test instead. I doubt they have a portable x-ray though! We have some more experienced equine vets 30mins away but they only come to our area on a specific day a week (!!!!) and a good vets 2 hours away but they only see us in their surgery.

What a nightmare. I am quite fed up with living in the back of beyond!
 
Contact the Laminitis Trust (or even better, have your vet update his skills via them) or these people http://www.laminitisclinic.org/ and ensure he has support for his pedal bones. One really bad case we had here had gas pockets inside the laminae thanks to inflammation etc, the equine vets drilled holes in the hoof wall to release the gas, working carefully from x rays. Could that be why yours is looking worse now than at the start?
They also taped deep polystyrene supports to her soles every time she had to leave her deep shavings or other chopped bedding, to support her pedal bones.
Please please don't listen to the vet if he suggests exercise in hand - used to be the old remedy, now we know it contributes to founder or rotation.
 
Conformant surface, pain relief, soak his hay - and you will find boots with SOFT pads a boon.

What you should do is get blood tests for cushings, IR and general blood profile (blood count)

The xrays are important - to find out what rotation there has been.
 
Yes I've heard of blood letting for a laminitic: saw it done many years ago now for a pony. I seem to remember the blood filling up at least half a bucketful, if not more.

Apparently it worked on bringing relief by reducing the volume of blood in the horse/pony's body, and because the blood pressure is therefore dropped, it is supposed to bring relief inside the capillaries of the hoof etc.

An old remedy, like firing, very very rarely used now I would suspect.

Personally if my vet suggested it, I would ask for a second opinion. But wouldn't discount it out of hand as sometimes things are so old, they're "new", if you see what I mean.
 
This maybe completely wrong, but I wonder if blood letting is also supposed to be an extreme way of detoxing the horse's system. With a sugar free diet the regenerated blood would dilute sugars already in the blood maybe?
I am sure it probably provided some benefit before the days of NSAIDs, but would have thought if a blood test showed raised blood sugars then Pergolide or similar would control this today.
 
Had a chat with the vet. The blood letting was in order to decrease the BP but I have managed to tactfully cancel that. I got some ACP off him instead. He does not have a portable x-ray, so I will call the other vets tomorrow and try to arrange an appointment for the x-rays and blood test.

Meanwhile poor Cakey is still not weight bearing on his right front :(
 
Good god. Blood letting was the in thing 50yrs ago before we knew better. Cant believe there are still vets out there recommending that. I would change vet sharpish. Acp, bute and frog supports will help a lot more!
 
He is on ACP and bute but still not weight bearing on one front and the leg is beginning to swell up. All four hooves are mildly hot but not near the coronet band, and I can't find pulses (but that may my fault).

I can't find frog supports around here (my farrier is eventing a few hours away but will pop by on Sunday evening as soon as he's back).

The vet is back to take bloods this morning for an infection and Cushings.

Changing vets is not a viable option as there are no other vets that would come out. The other horsey vets only come to my area once a week and have previously refused to come out for an emergency following one of their treatments and the decent vets don't come out to my area at all. I only now realise how spoilt for choice I was in the UK!!!
 
Lami is one of my most dreaded things after dealing with one of mine a few years back i really feel for you
if its any help my farrier used rolled cottonwool (thick) and put over the frog then vet wrapped to keep in place or if you have any foam wall matting or something else made of thick foam cut out a shape of the frog and wrap on until your farrier arrives
 
Thank you both. Do I support just the worse foot or both fronts (or all four)?

Vet came, will have results of general blood test today, Cushings on Monday. Meanwhile gave him antibiotics just in case adn we'll see.
 
If he's sore on all four I would do all four if using vet wrap form in into a sausage the correct length and press it together keep adding more until you have formed a dense hard lump then bandage on .
You need to need the bandage off the coronet as that will be filled and sore ,you might need to bulk up the pad now and again as it will compress I saw my vet do this once when no proper supports where aviable .
 
Please put him on this diet. http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/ddt-overview/ddt-diet immediately and look to further appropriate mineral supplementation for his future management along with changes to management to prevent further attacks.
Pain relief and anti inflammatory drugs are palliative interventions for the pain and discomfort they are not treatments, neither is blood letting imo.
Deep, conforming bed etc. help with comfort and support.
I read about a vet blood letting a few months ago and tbf I was astounded to hear it used in laminitis.

I wish you the best of luck. x

ps. These pads can be cut to shape and applied with duck tape. They are a cheap and effective first line of support. http://www.equinepodiatrysupplies.co.uk/Pads/EPS-4-lb-Pads

Here's a video showing how to apply them. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzUeYjYe5yE
 
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There's nothing new under the sun, so they say!

Cryotherapy is indeed now recommended by some vets - including in my case one who, more than a few years ago, absolutely poohpoohed the idea.

If you think about the relief gained by running an infected throbbing nail under the cold tap until chilled the same goes for horses' feet. We used four tubs of water and a hose to the cannonbones to keep my big mares' feet immersed to above the coronet band in an attempt to prevent a laminitis attack. It was very hard work as her legs had to be kept cold at all times. It worked though.

IMHO it's worth a try.
 
My vet recommended using foam backed carpet cut the same shape as the frog three layers for my little pony but should end up thick enough to fill to the height of the hoof bandage with vet wwrqp an if likely to get wet cover with duct tape
 
The good news is that today he is much better, weight bearing and slowly walking around in his little pen.

The bad news is that I have no idea what is going on. The bloods yesterday showed signs of infection (which could be abscess), minor signs of liver problems (consistent with lami) and anemia (which we can deal with after all this is over). The vet gave steroid anti-inflammatories (which may make lami worse) and antibiotics (which may make an abscess temporarily better).
 
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