Blood over Bone??

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Kacey88

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I have read recently that in order to breed an Irish sport horse, it is much wiser to put a TB stallion to an ID mare because the foal will be "less plain" than that born to a TB dam and an ID stallion. Surely this is false? Why do people think you have to breed blood over bone, is it because a TB mare would have a harder time delivering than an ID mare?
 
Some of the BEST ID sport horses were achieved with an ID stallion on a TB mare (Lenamore, for example.)

In Ireland, it was usually blood on bone because farmers HAD ID mares - who are thrifty, good mums, and hardy. Cheaper to keep than TB mares - and at that time - cheaper to buy! Now it's cheap enough to buy a failed racing filly and put an ID on it. My stallion has covered the same very smart TB mare 4 years running now and you couldn't fault the foals.

Of course, it's more about quality of both parents than it is about which way round you use them! Some TBs don't have the prettiest heads - and some IDs have BIG heads - mix those two up and you get big, plain heads no matter!

I certainly wouldn't use a BIG RID stallion on a small TB mare, particularly if she was a maiden mare. The shoulders of the foal could be a bit hefty.
 
Thanks for that Janet, I was wondering about that for a while! I didn't think the quaility would be effected dependent on which breed carried the foal, doesn't make sense genetically!

:)
 
Ive currently got a filly from a TB mare/ID stallion, pretty little thing, or I think so anyway :)

Not completely what I expected I admit, pretty little TB mare + ID hunter type = cob :D
 
From a genetic point of view it doesn't make any difference which way round you do it. From a nuture point of view, if you believe the stereotype of blood mares being neurotic and mares with bone being quiet, then I suppose 'blood over bone' could result in a more even tempered foal. But not all horses live up to breed stereotypes!
 
TGM said:
From a genetic point of view it doesn't make any difference which way round you do it. From a nuture point of view, if you believe the stereotype of blood mares being neurotic and mares with bone being quiet, then I suppose 'blood over bone' could result in a more even tempered foal. But not all horses live up to breed stereotypes!
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The dealer I bought my mare from has had 1 foal from her and told me not to put her to blood and unfortunatly he was certainly not the type to elaborate on these statements! But the filly he has out of her is by a heavier stallion and apparently she's very nice so that's probably why.

My dad always bred ID mares to TB stallions, and never TB mares to ID stallions even though he had both. But then, his TB mares were loopy, so not good for raising a foal I suppose!
 
TGM said:
From a genetic point of view it doesn't make any difference which way round you do it. From a nuture point of view, if you believe the stereotype of blood mares being neurotic and mares with bone being quiet, then I suppose 'blood over bone' could result in a more even tempered foal. But not all horses live up to breed stereotypes!
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That's very true. I have a couple of youngsters out of a 'hot' TB mare whose sire also had a 'reputation'. They are ok - but MUCH 'livelier' than the foals by the same stallion out of a TB x mare who has a super temperament herself.

Even amongst the pure IDs you see differences in foals out of different mares by the same stallion. Bossy mares who rule the roost have foals who end up doing the same; placid mares who are bottom of the pecking order also have foals that end up bottom of the food chain!:D
 
Capriole said:
Ive currently got a filly from a TB mare/ID stallion, pretty little thing, or I think so anyway :)

Not completely what I expected I admit, pretty little TB mare + ID hunter type = cob :D
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Lol, I did the same twice, same ID stallion, different mares but I haven't had cobs; I've had a more TB filly out of a three parts TB and a hunter type out of 7/8ths TB.
With apologies to OP for hijacking!
Yearling filly -
Sparks1031.jpg


Colt foal -
Photo0185.jpg
 
Maesfen said:
Lol, I did the same twice, same ID stallion, different mares but I haven't had cobs; I've had a more TB filly out of a three parts TB and a hunter type out of 7/8ths TB.
With apologies to OP for hijacking!
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No apology needed, lovely young 'uns! What stallion did you use?
 
Thank you. I used Maurice Minor (by Colman RID) at Embla Stud near Stafford. He's getting on a bit now but has had some lovely stock including Grade As, advanced eventers and dressage horses let alone top class show horses/hunters, numerous hunters and all rounders so surely something for everyone. I'm thrilled with my two even if I do have to sell the colt.
 
I was told that it was best to have the lighter horse as the dam and the heavier horse as the sire by someone who crossed TB's with Suffolks with the aim of breeding hunter types.

Not the same really, but when you breed mules, the horse has to be the dam and the sire is always the donkey. If you do the cross the other way round (donkey dam and horse sire), you get a Hinny and they do look different when compared with mules.
 
JanetGeorge said:
Even amongst the pure IDs you see differences in foals out of different mares by the same stallion. Bossy mares who rule the roost have foals who end up doing the same; placid mares who are bottom of the pecking order also have foals that end up bottom of the food chain!:D
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Thats because the foal spends his first few, important months with the mare and so learns her behaviour
 
Faracat said:
Not the same really, but when you breed mules, the horse has to be the dam and the sire is always the donkey. If you do the cross the other way round (donkey dam and horse sire), you get a Hinny and they do look different when compared with mules.
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This is so true!!!! Mules look like ....well.....mules and hinnys often get mistaken for very ugly ponies.

From the horses I have seen - not just ID x Tb but also shire x TB etc I do prefer blood over bone. Mums upbringing and temprement really do matter and it is intreresting as Faracat pointed out how weird genetics can be sometimes re the mules/hinnys.
 
Faracat said:
Not the same really, but when you breed mules, the horse has to be the dam and the sire is always the donkey. If you do the cross the other way round (donkey dam and horse sire), you get a Hinny and they do look different when compared with mules.
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I never even thought of that, its so true! Maybe it does matter which sex carries which genes then. At least in this case. Hmmm very interesting.
 
The other interesting cross is between Lions and Tigers.

A Liger (sire = Lion, dam = Tiger) is much bigger than a Tigon (sire = Tiger, dam = Lioness) due to the way that the genetics work. Ligers often weigh up to 1000 pounds where as Lions weigh up to 500 pounds and Tigers up to 600 pounds. Interestingly, unlike Mules and Hinneys, which are very, very rarely fertile, Ligers and Tigons are generally fertile and are sometimes bred with jaguars, leopards, lions, tigers or even with other big cat hybrids.

Back to horses....
From the horses I have seen - not just ID x Tb but also shire x TB etc I do prefer blood over bone. Mums upbringing and temprement really do matter
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The reason that the Suffolk x TB breeder that I knew gave for preferring to use the TB as the Dam, was that she found that the resulting foals were more true 'hunter types'. She said that using the Suffolk as the Dam, often resulted in a big bodied horse on TB legs.

I can see your point RE temperament, but there is a wide range of temperaments in the TB population and as they are not rare, you can find ones with correct conformation and a lovely nature.
 
Faracat said:
The other interesting cross is between Lions and Tigers.

The reason that the Suffolk x TB breeder that I knew gave for preferring to use the TB as the Dam, was that she found that the resulting foals were more true 'hunter types'. She said that using the Suffolk as the Dam, often resulted in a big bodied horse on TB legs.

I can see your point RE temperament, but there is a wide range of temperaments in the TB population and as they are not rare, you can find ones with correct conformation and a lovely nature.
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Yes, I have also seen the big bodied horse on TB legs! I think what it boils down to most of all is that a good breeder only uses good quality stock, that have correct conformation, movement and temperament. Janet also has a point that in the past ID mares were the ones easy to use and obtain. Now there are great quality TB mares that are easy to get :) I read a paper ages ago that in warmblood breeding they still prefer blood over bone and it did list the reasons why it was good to do it that way as opposed to vice versa. I am also sure I remember with the Ligers the gene that inhibits excessive growth is not passed on hence whey they grow bigger. I would need to do an internet search though to find both to confirm though. Its all very interesting :) :)

Just also wanted to add re the temperament and upbringing. I know when embryo transfer for sports horses was in its infancy draught type mares were used, however this was not successful. Initially it was though it was due to the temperament of the dam was influencing the foal. The sportshorse foals raised by draught mums tended to be quieter and not very enthusiastic about moving. I later read it is more to do with the quality of the milk produced - too much lower quality milk I think?????? Anyway, hinny's do tend to be more donkey like in nature than mules and the behaviourist I discussed this with did think it was due to being brought up by a donkey rather than the genetics.
 
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I am also sure I remember with the Ligers the gene that inhibits excessive growth is not passed on hence whey they grow bigger.
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That does seem to ring a bell somewhere in my mind. :)

The milk quality and influence of the Dam on the foal is interesting.

It is also possible that due to Suffolks being so rare, that it is hard to find top quality mares, especially when you are not breeding purebreds. I would think that most Suffolk owners would only want to sell the best mares/fillies to studs that will breed to Suffolk sires.
 
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