Bone Spavin/ Hock Issues

[EmmaKat]

Hi everyone,

Firstly, to introduce myself (although I may have posted here before, ages ago.) I am a 23 year old Nurse from Ireland. I have a Gypsy Cob that I hunt, and two sportshorse two year olds.

This query is about my Cob- Oisin. (Please bear with me if ye're subscribed to toher Forums, I will be posting in a few of them.)

I bought him in January of this year, advertised as a 5 year old (his passport says 6) nHowever, he has been aged as 4 and a half, NOW. I have (lightly) hunted him, and he had been doing so before I bought him, as well as being used under a cart.

I noticed him having "back-end" troubles around the first week in Feb. I though perhaps it was unfitness, tying up, his mudrash/ greay heel at him, etc. He was fine except one day out hunting he found a hill very hard. I did more flatwork with him, and he appeared to get better.

I then did some Hunter Trials, and he went great, but seemed "tired2 after his third, and last, one. I left him off for 5 weeks, and brought him to a few XC lessons, where he never picked up a correct canter lead to the right, if the circle was 20 metres or smaller. Again, I thought it was flatwork. I began riding him out the roads, and he'd shorten or miss a step every now and then. I thought "tying up" again, after spring grass.Gave him another 2 weeks off, and gave him a field "lick2 aimed at joint mobility, which he ATE in 3 days, the hog!

Brought him in again after the 2 weeks off, lunged him, and he lost his back legs for a split second. A few days later I took him to the vets, requesting an xray. Drove an hour there, to be told xray was out of action! Still did flexion tests etc, came up very lame. Suggested possible bone spavin.

Went to another vet the next day, as wanted an answer. Flexion tests etc came up sound! Pushed for an xray, came up with a "bone cip", suggested bone spavin. Put him on powdered Glucosamine, and turmeric (the turmeric was my choice, although I had him off it for a while as it drove him potty and he did further damage!)

Went back to vet A the following week, as was owed an xray.... NOTHING came up for hocks, stifle, fetlocks! Completely sound in flexion tests.

At this point I was losing my mind, so took him to a herbal/ acupuncturist/ nutritionist lady up the road. Figured it couldnt hurt as it was only a ten minute drive, as opposed to an hour to either ve. Came up mild arthritis in both hocks, and Pre-IR. Put him on a balancer (of which he eats 1/8 of the amount he should) and a joint supplement. Gave him 5 weeks off, as suggested by vet A, though acupuncturist and vet B said "ride him softly until the joint fuses".

Brought him back in to work after those 5 weeks, and he trotted sound. Lunged him for a comparison video between one I took in July, and his tracking up seems a bit better now. He seems to trot with a limp, but not a "sore" one as no head bobbing?

AAAAAAARGH! So, basically I'm asking what ye all think of the above scenario, any treatment suggestions, success stories with bone spavin/ hock issues?

[Thanks for reading the ULTRA long post!!]

(I'll try post a video too.)

 

[AdorableAlice]

Find yourself a decent vet.

 

[Goldenstar]

You need a proper consistent work up from a vet that specialises on this type of work.

 

[EmmaKat]

I wish it was that easy, Vet A (whose xray decided not to work on the day I went down), is the go to vet for my area, massive practice, always so busy there, does all the horses for sales etc. People drive 2 hours or more to this vet. I'm wondering was the other vets xray a bit off, as he was still using "plates", could they have been scratched?

 

[EmmaKat]

Goldenstar- As far as I know, Vet A is the go to vet for these issues in my area. I'm due to go back to them for more xrays soon.

 

[Goldenstar]

I would keep the horse gently moving turn out and perhaps if sound in walk some gentle walking and get him booked in ASAP .
I hope you get an answer .

 

[EmmaKat]

Thanks very much. The lunge the other day was as he had been galloping around the field, so lunged him for ten minutes to see if he has improved at at since July, otherwise no lunging, cantering, jumping. I have been hacking him bareback and bridleless once or twice a week, and he is 24/7 turnout on a track system.

 

[orionstar]

If the second vet didnt know what they were looking at, then it can be missed. Get a second opinion.

 

[EmmaKat]

Do you mean the one after I went to the vet with the broken xray?

Sorry, to clarify, I went to Vet A first (broken xray, lame in flexion etc tests), went to Vet B (who would have been my second opinion, sound in flexion etc tests, and I pushed for an xray), then back to Vet A (as I was owed an xray from them)

The second time back at Vet A they found nothing in xrays, though I kept pushing for more xrays, and kept saying "yeah, but what about bone spavin/ stifle issues, etc), and he enlarged the digital xray to MASSIVE and could find nothing.

I'm now wondering, because Vet B used "plates" (ie- had to develop the images), could they have been scratched? I'm treating for bone spavin either way, to be sure, but its just so confusing! The powdered Glucosamine could hardly have worked in that time....?

 

[ashlingm]

PMing you now

 

[Birker2020]

Do you mean the one after I went to the vet with the broken xray?

I'm now wondering, because Vet B used "plates" (ie- had to develop the images), could they have been scratched? I'm treating for bone spavin either way, to be sure, but its just so confusing! The powdered Glucosamine could hardly have worked in that time....?

Hi, scratched plates wouldn't alter the images so as to be unreadable, its pretty obvious by looking at xrays if your horse has spavin or not (a vet in particular).

Like others have said you need a proper lameness assessment. Spavin horses move differently, tend to clip the toe of their foot when they trot on concrete so you can see sparks flying off the toe, and will keep changing behind in canter when ridden. They will tend to drag a toe so the action of the hinds looks different, you can see the horse doesn't bring his hock underneath him (as it hurts to do so).

The 'losing his legs underneath him' scenario that you describe sounds move like a sacro iliac thing to me (in my humble opinion).

Some times the portable xray machines aren't brilliant but I have never heard of scratched plates creating an incorrect diagnosis.

Glucosamine supports joints by adding some of the components that are missing i.e collagen, hyaluronic acid, etc. But it won't alter the fact that a horse has spavin. It can take weeks and weeks to have any effect and recent research has even questioned what positive effect if any it does have.

 

[EmmaKat]

Hi, scratched plates wouldn't alter the images so as to be unreadable, its pretty obvious by looking at xrays if your horse has spavin or not (a vet in particular).

Like others have said you need a proper lameness assessment. Spavin horses move differently, tend to clip the toe of their foot when they trot on concrete so you can see sparks flying off the toe, and will keep changing behind in canter when ridden. They will tend to drag a toe so the action of the hinds looks different, you can see the horse doesn't bring his hock underneath him (as it hurts to do so).

The 'losing his legs underneath him' scenario that you describe sounds move like a sacro iliac thing to me (in my humble opinion).

Some times the portable xray machines aren't brilliant but I have never heard of scratched plates creating an incorrect diagnosis.

Glucosamine supports joints by adding some of the components that are missing i.e collagen, hyaluronic acid, etc. But it won't alter the fact that a horse has spavin. It can take weeks and weeks to have any effect and recent research has even questioned what positive effect if any it does have.

Hello there, thanks for entering the conversation.

To be honest I was just fishing for ideas at this point, due to the vets differing opinions. I am in no way trying to write off that my Cob has hock issues at the moment though.

Thinking back on it, I always thought Oisin was lame on left hind. However, up at vet B, after developing the images, he said "Was it the right hind you were concerned about?", I said "No, left", he didnt appear to hear me, and said "Yep, the startings of a spavin".

I then went back to Vet A, and got him to xray the whole left leg, as I thought Vet B had been going to say "No, spavin", if I said it was the right hock. Now I'm wondering did he just ignore me as he was examining the right hock image, and that Vet A (second visit), didnt pick it up as they thought it was the left hock?

He doesnt clip his toe, can drag it sometimes but is mostly a high stepper in trot. He does shift canter leds though, but only on a right handed circle, and doesnt bring his right hind QUITE under him.

Re: the losing legs, the vets have seemed to suggest that he possibly HAS sacro iliac pain due to holding his back tight on one side due to his hock action. He loses his legs more on a left handed circle.

As regards the joint supplements, I know it wont cure any damage that has been done (although some brands claim they will), but I'm hoping that it will help sustain them for a bit longer. Vet B said only the START of a spavin, so in your opinion, whats the prognosis for him returning to hunting after careful management? I have a horse for this year, so I'm talking October 2015. (And Vet B did say he may be fine after it fuses for two years, then I'll go through a sticky patch where the other hock may go as a result of "loading" from the other one, and after both fuse he should be fine?)

 

[cellie]

This is so similar to mine he has sacroiliac pain, if he has been treated as 5/6 yr old its likely he has inflammation as he was still maturing. Mine had bone scans today so we know exactly what we are dealing with as he might have secondary lameness.Si and hocks often go hand in hand.

 

[EmmaKat]

This is so similar to mine he has sacroiliac pain, if he has been treated as 5/6 yr old its likely he has inflammation as he was still maturing. Mine had bone scans today so we know exactly what we are dealing with as he might have secondary lameness.Si and hocks often go hand in hand.

Yeah, I'm thinking my boy was just overall rushed, especially regarding cart work, as he has too small harness rubs on his withers. How are your horses hocks, and what treatment are you using?

 

[Birker2020]

Hello there, thanks for entering the conversation.


Vet B said only the START of a spavin, so in your opinion, whats the prognosis for him returning to hunting after careful management? I have a horse for this year, so I'm talking October 2015. (And Vet B did say he may be fine after it fuses for two years, then I'll go through a sticky patch where the other hock may go as a result of "loading" from the other one, and after both fuse he should be fine?)

I would say VET B is correct (but I am not a vet only someone who has gone through all the spavin process with her horse).
My horse has Tildren which from recollection was £700 a time. He had three lots through insurance. This gave him a few years but then he damaged his n/f suspensory and was overloading onto it from his off hind due to the spavin in it. So after Bailey had undergone PRP treatment on the suspensory the vet suggested eradicating the pain of the spavin altogether by fusion using ethanol. This was a fantastic treatment for my horse after I had exhausted all the other treatments. You might like to consider speaking to your vet about this but to be honest hun you really need a correct diagnosis in the first place and that can only be achieved by a proper workup.

Read this link for details about fusion with ethanol (alcohol):
http://www.thehorse.com/articles/26...hers-alcohol-joint-fusion-effective-aaep-2010
http://www.horseandrideruk.com/article.php?id=2414

 

[cellie]

Yeah, I'm thinking my boy was just overall rushed, especially regarding cart work, as he has too small harness rubs on his withers. How are your horses hocks, and what treatment are you using?

Ive just had part of results from bone scan he has heat in both spavins, xrays later after hes no longer radio active. Ill let u know what treatment we decide to go with, my previous horse had operation which worked to fuse hocks he was 4 this new one is 6 !!! there are many options .

 

[EmmaKat]

I would say VET B is correct (but I am not a vet only someone who has gone through all the spavin process with her horse).
My horse has Tildren which from recollection was £700 a time. He had three lots through insurance. This gave him a few years but then he damaged his n/f suspensory and was overloading onto it from his off hind due to the spavin in it. So after Bailey had undergone PRP treatment on the suspensory the vet suggested eradicating the pain of the spavin altogether by fusion using ethanol. This was a fantastic treatment for my horse after I had exhausted all the other treatments. You might like to consider speaking to your vet about this but to be honest hun you really need a correct diagnosis in the first place and that can only be achieved by a proper workup.

Read this link for details about fusion with ethanol (alcohol):
http://www.thehorse.com/articles/26...hers-alcohol-joint-fusion-effective-aaep-2010
http://www.horseandrideruk.com/article.php?id=2414

Thanks very much. I'm just a little bit put of by the prospect of doing any sort of surgery on a four to five year old though.... However, this has popped up so much that I may consider it!

 

[EmmaKat]

Ive just had part of results from bone scan he has heat in both spavins, xrays later after hes no longer radio active. Ill let u know what treatment we decide to go with, my previous horse had operation which worked to fuse hocks he was 4 this new one is 6 !!! there are many options .

Im confused, what do you mean by radioactive?

 

[cellie]

Im confused, what do you mean by radioactive?

when they have bone scan they inject radioactive dye into system, pooh and urine are radio active
for few days so vet wants to wait until tomorrow to xray. My 4 yr old had surgery years ago(anthroscopy) but there are other less invasive options RE op the vet drills cartlidge between bones then the joint calcifies like broken bone and inflammation normally stops at end of this process. I think its normally 3 mth process it was long time ago so I will need to refresh. he was out in paddock once stitches were out and healed really well then it was lots of walk 6 weeks/ trot etc.
http://www.novickdvm.com/spavin.htm this link gives you plenty of info .

 

[EmmaKat]

when they have bone scan they inject radioactive dye into system, pooh and urine are radio active
for few days so vet wants to wait until tomorrow to xray. My 4 yr old had surgery years ago(anthroscopy) but there are other less invasive options RE op the vet drills cartlidge between bones then the joint calcifies like broken bone and inflammation normally stops at end of this process. I think its normally 3 mth process it was long time ago so I will need to refresh. he was out in paddock once stitches were out and healed really well then it was lots of walk 6 weeks/ trot etc.
http://www.novickdvm.com/spavin.htm this link gives you plenty of info .

Oh! I see! And does the dye show where there is damage present?

Also, would the drilling not be the more expensive way of just trotting them out the roads (gently), as suggested by Vet B, in effect causing an injury (although, yes, I know he already has one), leading to inflammation, and then recovery? Vet B explained it like that, and that it would lead to calcification naturally?

Or do you mean the vet inserts artificial cartilage, to build up the "space" between the bone "chips"?

 

[EmmaKat]

Noted here in the article:

"This method uses a chemical agent to erode the joint surface leading to fusion."

Again, would it not be the same as continuing to "lightly" work the horse, causing natural erosion and fusion? Are these surgeries/ invasive procedures just a means to get it to "fix" faster"?

 

[cellie]

Oh! I see! And does the dye show where there is damage present?

Also, would the drilling not be the more expensive way of just trotting them out the roads (gently), as suggested by Vet B, in effect causing an injury (although, yes, I know he already has one), leading to inflammation, and then recovery? Vet B explained it like that, and that it would lead to calcification naturally?

Or do you mean the vet inserts artificial cartilage, to build up the "space" between the bone "chips"?

Once cartilage is drilled out the calcification will start, so essentially the surgery is quicker option and less pain in long run. You need to erode cartilage before bone can calcify .It depends on how far gone hocks are if xrays show they are already fusing then I wouldnt go for op.
The dye shows all the hot spots /inflammation its handy if there are multiple lameness issues. Mine has k/s as well and the hind leg has caused concussion on foreleg the bone scan is good diagnostic tool.

 

[cellie]

Ill be asking about the latest less invasive treatment so maybe we can compare notes

 

[EmmaKat]

Once cartilage is drilled out the calcification will start, so essentially the surgery is quicker option and less pain in long run. You need to erode cartilage before bone can calcify .It depends on how far gone hocks are if xrays show they are already fusing then I wouldnt go for op.
The dye shows all the hot spots /inflammation its handy if there are multiple lameness issues. Mine has k/s as well and the hind leg has caused concussion on foreleg the bone scan is good diagnostic tool.

Oh, I get you now. And would the cartilage erode naturally/ with exercise?

Aw no, sad about the K/S, is it related to the hocks in some way?

 

[cellie]

Yes it would erode but every horse and time period is different.The hard part is managing the pain .
Not sure about k/s and hocks obviously it doesnt help but vet found other hot spots in front legs as well. Hes trying to isolate but its proving very difficult .I have to ride him tomorrow before and after blocks that will be fun hes not been ridden for weeks.

 

[culteuchar]

Just had my mare injected with tildren its very expensive and I went on record saying it was crap, however I hadn't given it enough time and have been proved completely wrong. The difference in my mares spavin is getting better every day now almost completely sound but I have to work her gently for the next few months as the drug continues to work. However as spavin is degenerative you can only slow it down and ease discomfort but I have to say the future for my mare is a whole lot brighter for a reasonably long healthy life thanks to tildren.

 

[EmmaKat]

Yes it would erode but every horse and time period is different.The hard part is managing the pain .
Not sure about k/s and hocks obviously it doesnt help but vet found other hot spots in front legs as well. Hes trying to isolate but its proving very difficult .I have to ride him tomorrow before and after blocks that will be fun hes not been ridden for weeks.

Ouch1 Sounds like youre going through a hard time. What age is your horse again?

Oh, I know that feeling! Had mine off for 5 weeks, lunged him and he'd barely trot, took him for a hack in a lunging cavesson (WHY!), and he bolted, bucked, spun, reared.... He's a fat Cob.

 

[EmmaKat]

Just had my mare injected with tildren its very expensive and I went on record saying it was crap, however I hadn't given it enough time and have been proved completely wrong. The difference in my mares spavin is getting better every day now almost completely sound but I have to work her gently for the next few months as the drug continues to work. However as spavin is degenerative you can only slow it down and ease discomfort but I have to say the future for my mare is a whole lot brighter for a reasonably long healthy life thanks to tildren.

Ah, and how expensive is it exactly? I will of course be keeping it in mind when he's about 8, I'm just a little slow to give it to a young horse. Maybe I'm wrong, just a thought when their plates are still growing?

 

[cellie]

lol why just to prove he could !!! mines 6 tb not off track suppose to be tbx !!! he has kissing spine, spavin both hinds, bone chip rear fetlock , heat around knee and cannon bone and some concussion in fetlock foreleg dont think Ive missed anything !!!!! Ive been here before and its not nice place to be .After 10 days of owning him he went through electric tape and cut his leg to the bone and I nearly lost him.Ive only ridden for few months and done huge amounts of ground work to build him up .

 

[EmmaKat]

lol why just to prove he could !!! mines 6 tb not off track suppose to be tbx !!! he has kissing spine, spavin both hinds, bone chip rear fetlock , heat around knee and cannon bone and some concussion in fetlock foreleg dont think Ive missed anything !!!!! Ive been here before and its not nice place to be .After 10 days of owning him he went through electric tape and cut his leg to the bone and I nearly lost him.Ive only ridden for few months and done huge amounts of ground work to build him up .

Oh sweet jesus, he sounds like pretty much the most accident prone horse ever. I had one like him, passport said ISH by Cavalier Royale- that dude was almost certainly 100% thoroughbred.