border collie help please

[Rudolph's Red Nose]

I have a 9 month old male b/c who has been neutered, he is a lovely little chap who loves nothing more than cuddles and tummy rubs BUT if he becomes fixated on a task nothing can distract him from, its like he can not hear / see anything else just what he needs to do.

When I intervene by taking him by the collar, last resort - which I do not hurt him in anyway, just grab the collar - he snaps / nips / bites (no growling or snarling etc) whatever you wish to call it to try and get his own way.

His two "fixations" at the moment ...

The tv - I seem to over come this now by initially starting with stones in a coke bottle to shake and break his concentration and now either he listens to NO or if he 'fixates' I now put him on a lead and he gives up and lies down to sleep.

Digging holes in the garden is the main problem as I can not seem to stop him doing it, I have tried distraction, telling off, treating for leaving etc etc but if that fails and I go to hold his collar he bites / nips me, today resulting in an immediate bruised arm and yes he got told off - he is currently in his crate.

Can anyone giving any other suggestions as to how to deals with these fixations he gets as I have been sitting here in tears (frustration and anger) writing this email ...

 

[Blanche]

I would put him on a long line when he is in the house or garden so you don't need to go near his collar . You can buy very light dog lines that he won't feel trailing and you will be able to remove him from the trigger without losing fingers ! I would also have a slip lead with you at other times as you could get that on without touching him . I think others will be able to give more detailed answers but this would be a start .

 

[Alec Swan]

Collies, such as yours, don't generally make the best of pets. The dog is begging for work, or at least something to occupy his incredibly active mind. You will find that if you can replace his boredom level, which by the sound of it, has gone beyond the stage of simmering, with an alternative, then he will stop biting you. It's frustration, nothing more or less. That and the fact that he has little respect for you.

If you try to put a stop to his current behaviour display, one of two things will happen; you will either have a dog which will get the better of you, and the biting will become much worse, or you will need to beat nine bells out of him, on a regular basis, and the end result may well be that you are still bitten.

The answer in short is find something positive upon which he can focus. In an ideal world, he wants sheep, but failing that there are several jobs which collies are good at; Tracker dog, Search dogs, perhaps agility. "Forcing" him into compliance is unlikely to succeed. Coercion and a brain occupying alternative really is the only way. As a matter of interest, why did you have him castrated?

I'm sorry that what should be a pleasant experience for you has been so upsetting, but the only alternative to allowing him some sort of work, is to re-home him to a shepherd.

Alec.

 

[PolarSkye]

How often do you walk him and what other mental/physical stimulation does he get?

Collies are very bright dogs but that intelligence needs to be channelled or they can become either fixated or neurotic, or both. Sounds to me like your boy needs a job . . . like agility or flyball or even amateur trialling so he can exercise his brain and his body.

I also second the idea of a long line.

P

 

[meesha]

just come back from the yard with my bc - we were out of the house 4 odd hours and he was running behind horse out riding for nearly 2 hours ! mine has a working dog attitude - if you give him a "job" such as diong the horses morning and night he is happy as larry but will still growl at us when tired or near his food - we just ignore the behaviour - we have tried to sort it out when he was younger with no luck - he is now 12.

If you need to stop his vices he will need a "job" including loads of exercise - if you have to stop him you could try a water pistol as this wont involve you going anywhere near his collar - combine the water with a word such as "stop" or "no" and hopefully you wont eventually need the water pistol.

Another possiblity is making him a "yard" dog with hiw own kennel - if you and other people are up there enough he may be happier living that way.

They are "special" so good luck - we got our chap at 7 months old from RSPCA as someone couldnt cope with him - they are very very hard work but equally rewarding.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Agree with above, he needs work/occupation/a job (even if that is obedience, agility, flyball etc) and you need a house line/tab line to protect your hands! Cut the hand loop off anything you might use so it doesn't catch or snag on anything. I just use an old bit of cord with a knot tied in the end.

 

[CAYLA]

Certainly as suggested introduce some brain activity or as suggested a job/maybe try agility, to try and help in the home environment......
Stop grabbing his collar, instead leave a slip lead on him (at times you can carry out a session that would bring on the behaviour) and use (time out) as in sit and watch tv and when he displays the ott focus take hold of the slip (not his collar) and place him out of the room (slip still on), leave him out a few minutes and allow him back into the room, no talk or recognition and sit back down and watch tv once again, repeat this as many times as it takes for him to realise he only remains in the room when not displaying the focus behaviour.
Also try a filled kong bone and see if by interest this would distract his focus from the tv.

With the digging, he sounds a little bored and digging gives him a release, could you hide some kongs, pref not under earth (filled) with goodies, say under movable objects , or section off a paved area for him to go out and give him plenty to occupy him, even put a sand/soil pit out there, only in a sectioned off area (not the main garden).

 

[ladyearl]

I have a "pet" Border Collie in fact this is my second one. You do have to use their brain or they will find other fixations and I think you may be looking at frustration from your dog. i.e. he thinks his "job" is to eye they moving figures on the TV and you are annoying him by trying to prevent him doing this. I don't think collies respond well to negative reinforcement so grabbing his collar telling him off etc will all go past him.

You want to re direct his work ethic into something else. Have you tried clicker training at all? I do a lot of obedience work with my current girl and tbh it keeps her calm in the house. But if we haven't done any formal training for a few days I can see her getting a little edgy - all I need to do is click and treat and spend five minutes working with her and she's back on track .

They are not an easy breed as pets but if you get into their mind set and work with them in some capacity the rewards are fantastic!

 

[ladyearl]

Actually thought maybe it would help if I tell you about my day...

Wake up, get up, get dressed. Tess told to "wait" in her bed during this. She's sitting up ears pricked because she knows she's about to get a task.

Call Tess to heel at top of stairs and tell her "go on" meet her at the bottom "sit" lead goes on. Short walk at heel on the lead (we are working on loose lead training just now).

Back for breakfast. "sit" "wait" "get your dinner"

Once she has eaten she gets to free play in the garden for 10 mins while I get us ready to go. Then it's walk to heel to the car "sit" "wait" "get in"

She has to wait in car while I do various tasks and she's not allowed to meerkat up if she does I'll see her and wave her down.

Eventually we collect dogs and go on our walks - during which she will have to do various commands interspersed with free running and playing with other dogs.

Back at the house and after a nap (her not me) we went out to the garden and ran through her heel work (off lead) and her stand recall and stand stay (just ten mins) I then used the clicker to start teaching her to bow (just got a new book lol).

Since we came back in from all of that she has been flat out sleeping!

In about half an hour we'll go for another good walk with more free running for her and then back for tea and a quick groom before she dozes her way through the evening. At bed time she has to "wait" till I give the command to go upstairs.

I'm not saying you have to do all or any of this but getting the dog to think in a work way as we go about our day has been working for me with Tess and worked with my last BC too. It sounds like a rigid regime but it doesn't feel like that because her face lights up whenever she is asked to do a wee task even a simple on like waiting to go to bed!

 

[EAST KENT]

I used to breed and do obedience with BC`s. Their natural instinct is to "eye" or fixate on something.In their proper surroundings this is sheep,in obedience we transfer this fixation to the handler. Every puppy I bred went with the instuction to teach "lie down"..so whatever it was doing this command would cause it to drop into a lie ,to be used as a brake.And then followed by "that`ll do" at which the dog stops everything and returns to it`s handler. Without these they would be impossible ,the fixation is extremely strong in good sheepdogs,far too strong in my opinion to break and try and reform into a pet house dog.
Mine used to spend their days free and played "pen the cat" ,by herding the yard cats into pop holes provided in doors for mousers access. It was a red letter day when some Kent tups broke into our field to my flock of Welsh Blackies,the ram had a great time,and the collie spent that day splitting blacks from whites,then reblending them to repeat the performance.She spent a less fruitful day trying to herd a ploughing tractor in the next field once.Another favourite slant on Pen the Cat was to herd it up trees..so collie would end up on a branch eyeing the cat on another.It is far too inborn in good ones to be rid of it,so use it in some way,ducks are good occupiers as they herd nicely.This is the reason so many border collies are misfits in purely pet homes.

 

[meesha]

our bc is now 12 but about 18 months ago he lost his herding job at home - he used to obsessively watch the cats - he thought this was his job - we lost the last cat 18 months ago - unfair to get another cat so will have to put up with his twice daily visit to yard.

We use the command "get in" as a fail safe - this is used to call him in behind me and behind the horse and never ever fails whereas "no" if he is focussed has little effect !

 

[palomino_pony]

Lots of stimulation and jobs to do. My dad had a bc that was abandoned after the foot n mouth. He we to work with my dad in his van, spent all day in and out of different customers houses and gardens- its amazing how many people intived him in when dad was working there. He remembered every persons cupboard that gave him biscuits! He too loved rounding up cats, Labradors and cows- got fixated on this.. He got 2 long walks a day without fail- off lead. If he was a stay at home dog he would have been v naughty. Hope you get your dog sorted- he didn't like his collar grabbed either.

 

[Rudolph's Red Nose]

Thank you very much for all your replies, just got in from the horses - it wasnt raining ...

I have had 2 b/c before Roonie and have never ever had this problem before and thought I knew all their little funny ways WRONG..

Roonie gets 2-3 walks a day, (3/4 hr at a time minimum) one in the morning before work, one midday ish and the other at night when we do the horses. 99% of the walks are off the lead as I am very lucky that I have access to miles of tracks at the end of my road and I work from home so he has free access to house and garden all day unless I go out but he chooses to lay at my feet under my desk.

He has a treat ball that he gets given in the evening with little treats in that he loves plus we play hide the biscuit, he sits and stays in the kitchen while I hide the biscuits and then he has to go find them.

I have been given the name of a trainer who used to specialise in b/c but now does german sheps so I am hoping he may be able to help me but in the meantime I will do the long line (have a spare lunge line) when I am out in the garden (he only digs if I am out there) and see what happens.

Again thank you very much for all your kind suggestions.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Orbie, I have a GSD (older than yours so can do more high-impact stuff - don't go mad walking until after 12 months, work his brain instead) and for instance yesterday he did a five mile bike ride and then some bitework, today he has had a run on the beach, a swim in the river, some heelwork, dumbbells and then will have a bit more bitey stuff tonight...I could walk him all day and it would never take the edge off him - he needs controlled exercise/control, as LadyEarl says, and he needs his brain worked.
He would also have a propensity to fixate but his fixation is on a ball - he will do anything for a ball so that is what we use in all training, the ball is a high value toy that he only ever gets when he is doing what I have asked him to do.
He is also a digger but I keep him on concrete during the day.

 

[NeverSayNever]

orbie, as you know they are a lot of work. Alec said it best when he said BC's such as yours dont make good pets. The BC by nature is not an easy dog and are highly clever etc etc etc as you already know However,some are more sharp than others as you have recently found out. Ive had 6, of varying degrees of sharpness and tbh 4 of the 6 would probably be decent enough in an active country pet home, the 5th would be harder work in a pet home with his temperament but not insurmountable however the 6th is one of those utterly hard wired neurotic types and she would not last 5 minutes. Ive got my work cut out with her, thats for sure. I do agility but tbh its only really a 'job' if they can do it every day, properly. Too many people sign up for agility classes to 'calm their hyper dog' and think an hour class once a week will work some kind of magic (not insinuating you would, just ranting). My sharp dog needs agility training every day, luckily we train at home. When I say 'needs' i really mean it. The others would be ok without it as long as they were getting plenty of other exercise and playing together; but this girl I have to be on top of 100% of the time. Continually reinforcing the basics, because by God if she sees a chink in your consistency you can forget it, ad that then becomes a downward spiral. As Ladyearl describes, by continually 'working' her she is focusing on me... I cant just leave her to entertain herself int he garden for any length of time, she has to be on task and if I dont provide one, she will... chasing cars, catching flies, herding (and murdering) chickens, chasing the ponies, snapping at the rabbit&guineapig... and as you say, once she is fixated it is nigh on impossible to pull her off. However she has a good (not as good as i want though) instant drop command to act as a brake as East Kent says and I think it says it all , that she can be trained on the agility equipment and lie in a stay and focus on me while i move jumps etc, with my ponies and hens in the same paddock, and totally ignore them now- because she is fixated on the job in hand. Take away the job - she finds her own again. You have my sympathy as I think I have been spoiled up until now with the BC's Ive had, this girl has made me shed my fair share of blood, sweat and tears, literally!

I hope this helps in some way, i didnt mean to write such an essay lol

 

[Rudolph's Red Nose]

orbie, as you know they are a lot of work. Alec said it best when he said BC's such as yours dont make good pets. The BC by nature is not an easy dog and are highly clever etc etc etc as you already know However,some are more sharp than others as you have recently found out. Ive had 6, of varying degrees of sharpness and tbh 4 of the 6 would probably be decent enough in an active country pet home, the 5th would be harder work in a pet home with his temperament but not insurmountable however the 6th is one of those utterly hard wired neurotic types and she would not last 5 minutes. Ive got my work cut out with her, thats for sure. I do agility but tbh its only really a 'job' if they can do it every day, properly. Too many people sign up for agility classes to 'calm their hyper dog' and think an hour class once a week will work some kind of magic (not insinuating you would, just ranting). My sharp dog needs agility training every day, luckily we train at home. When I say 'needs' i really mean it. The others would be ok without it as long as they were getting plenty of other exercise and playing together; but this girl I have to be on top of 100% of the time. Continually reinforcing the basics, because by God if she sees a chink in your consistency you can forget it, ad that then becomes a downward spiral. As Ladyearl describes, by continually 'working' her she is focusing on me... I cant just leave her to entertain herself int he garden for any length of time, she has to be on task and if I dont provide one, she will... chasing cars, catching flies, herding (and murdering) chickens, chasing the ponies, snapping at the rabbit&guineapig... and as you say, once she is fixated it is nigh on impossible to pull her off. However she has a good (not as good as i want though) instant drop command to act as a brake as East Kent says and I think it says it all , that she can be trained on the agility equipment and lie in a stay and focus on me while i move jumps etc, with my ponies and hens in the same paddock, and totally ignore them now- because she is fixated on the job in hand. Take away the job - she finds her own again. You have my sympathy as I think I have been spoiled up until now with the BC's Ive had, this girl has made me shed my fair share of blood, sweat and tears, literally!

I hope this helps in some way, i didnt mean to write such an essay lol

Yes it has helped, I think the overwhelming message from everyone is brain work, more brain work and a little more brain work

I am realising that I have definitely been spoilt with my previous b/c's ( one bitch, one dog), the frustrating thing is that Roonie is a loving dog and so willing to please, infact is currently fast asleep on my feet but this fixation obession he has is definitely hard to overcome.

I had intentionally (naively perhaps) looked for a puppy from a "pet home" and his parents / grandparents were all pets so I had hoped that was a good starting point but obviously instinct is winning over.

The phone is being picked up Monday to try and start with booking 1-1 training sessions so I can get him listening to me more and getting the fundmental basics to sink in more and I will also enquire of the local flyball club as to starting ages and see if that helps him realise rules = fun.

Again thank you everyone for your positive help.

 

[Wundahorse]

I have owned Collies for many years and love this wonderful breed for it's essential characteristics and brains.I always worked them in creative ways as i have no sheep to herd.From an early age i concentrate on basic obedience with periods of play and running.At a reasonable age i introduce the show jumps,of which many of us forum users have access too.My Collies quickly pick up the agility concept and it's a great way to channel their energy and teach ongoing obedience which is needed to work them over the jumps.I never need to use treats as they love this work,concentrate on my commands and fix their Collie eye on me,waiting for the next instruction.At other times they play with a tennis ball and a football,and also run with the other dogs on the yard.I realise not all yards allow their liveries to bring dogs,but if you can it is a good workout and the dogs learn so much.They usually come home,have their dinner and sleep.However,my 8 year old red and white Collie is wonderful at amusing himself and he comes home and plays in the garden with balls and old agility poles until night time.I agree with Alec and other people that they need to respect you and require lots of mental and physical stimulation in the abscence of their real jobs.Mine have always been well balanced,other than one who was poorly as a 8 month old and who had issues around other dogs,but never with people i hasten to add.

 

[bonny]

Don't want to depress you but I used to have a collie that was fixated on the tv and never stopped till his dying day. Must admit I never saw anything wrong with it though ....I once left it on with him in the living room for 24 hours to see if he would get bored, didn't work, he never slept or took his eyes off it !

 

[Renvers]

I sympathise. I have devised some in the house jobs for my BC Bitch she has to 'find' the ball when i put or throw it (we only play when i instigate the game) or move to a certian part of the room. She is from working lines and I have figured having jobs around the house will sate her urges. She also does Flyball and some agility classes to give her other focuses.

We also go for long walks, she can climb up and down a mountain and still be full of beans at the bottom!

 

[Lunchbox legend]

One of my BCs was a very, very busy girl and I discovered I could get 'some time off' if I built a 'collie operated ball throwing device' in the garden for her. It was a bit of plastic tube cut in half lengthways, at an angle on some old bricks. I showed her (just once!) to put the ball in the tube at the higher end. From then on she would do it herself, chase her ball and then come back to do it again. Now and then I'd make some changes to the set up and she loved it .

Maybe you could devise a few 'collie operated devices' in your garden? What about teaching tricks like 'say your prayers' or household chores like getting the laundry out of the machine or putting his own toys away. Are you interested in doing anything like 'doggy dancing'? Or what about some really complex fetch? I saw a news item in Germany about a woman who had trained her collie to look at pictures of its toys and then to go to another room to fetch the toy in the picture. It (I say it cos I can't remember if it was a boy or a girl) never got it wrong.

Alternatively, when out on a walk you could throw the ball into a thick bunch of bushes, as far as possible so he has to find it. I discovered this by accident one day when I tried to get rid of some festering ball my BC had found. On one occasion, it took her 20 mins to find it - perfect for getting the flask and biccies out .

Collies are one of my favourite breeds. Can't wait until I can have a dog again. Lucky you. Hope it all comes good for you in the end .