Border collie help

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I have a border collie named Luna and she is 7 months old now. It’s very difficult with her as she is quite strange, frustrating and great. I am trying to figure her out as we have made some progress but her problems are chasing cars, lunging at bike and any moving thing even myself when running. She is an angel inside but has door dashed a few times and chased a tractor one time, this herding drive is extremely dangerous and I have to take her on very remote walks but when she is taken into town it’s impossible to get her, focus, attention or to stop pulling. I am getting very stressed as I have trained many times and have cried a few as she will be fine inside and listen like it’s only me and her in the work but as soon as I step out the door it’s a different story. She is very attached to a tennis ball and have tried that but then she does walk properly. Please any advice or help as it is very much needed.

Thank you x
 

CorvusCorax

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The ball on a rope will help you keep it more 'active'.

Whilst there's no excuse not to teach loose lead walking, it won't be any substitute for the brain training and (when she's old enough) physical exercise that a collie needs so you can look at other ways of letting her burn off some steam :)
 

AmyMay

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Give her a job to do. I have a highly trained ex working sheepdog in my life - he’s three years old and has gone from a working home to a pet home. He survives his change of lifestyle because I still work him and train him. If this wasn’t happening he’d be a basket case.

You have a dog that needs a job - a tennis ball just won’t be enough ultimately.

Do you have a fly ball club near by?
 
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Give her a job to do. I have a highly trained ex working sheepdog in my life - he’s three years old and has gone from a working home to a pet home. He survives his change of lifestyle because I still work him and train him. If this wasn’t happening he’d be a basket case.

You have a dog that needs a job - a tennis ball just won’t be enough ultimately.

Do you have a fly ball club near by?
I’m not sure I’ve never looked for one but I will definitely see as it looks like great fun for her thank you.
 

JennBags

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She needs something to channel her energy. Do you do any trick or obedience training with her?
I wouldn't go for fly ball, if you have an already slightly neurotic high drive dog, fly ball can send them a bit nuts. The breeder we got our dog from really didn't recommend it, we tried a tester session and our dog was wired up for a good hour or so following it.
We don't take a ball with us when we're out as Juno gets fixated on the ball. We channel her energy in other ways, obedience and trick training really wears her out. There are some great trainers on YouTube: KikoPup and Larry Krohn are a couple I follow. You need to get her focus on YOU and not the ball, not the cars or other moving objects. You have to be more fun than everything else around you and if that means you're acting like an idiot and making ridiculous noises to get her attention, then so be it!
We struggled with Juno from about 6 months to about 14 months. There were times when I thought that we were not a suitable home for a high drive border collie and I considered either returning her to the breeder or finding a better home for her. I'm so glad we didn't as she's grown up into the most wonderful dog although we always need to keep her entertained.
I think the real turning point was when we started agility, she absolutely loves it.
I also agree getting s collie centric trainer is important.
Good luck.
 

Chiffy

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Great advice JB!
I have a rescue with a good dose of collie in her. She was meant to be just a cross of retrievers. I don’t do the collie temperament! They are intelligent but think for themselves whereas retrievers try to please you.
Luckily she isn’t full collie so the traits are slightly diluted. I couldn’t believe how obedient she could be and quick to learn and the next instant be completely deaf and hyper about something. I have had her just over a year now and she is just two and changing so much. She is a great companion , loving and focused, often the first on recall to the whistle and not forever wanting to hunt and chase. Just the occasional deafness appears!
Hope you get some help and things improve. Use her brain but don’t get her hyper excited.
 

JennBags

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Great advice JB!
I have a rescue with a good dose of collie in her. She was meant to be just a cross of retrievers. I don’t do the collie temperament! They are intelligent but think for themselves whereas retrievers try to please you.
Luckily she isn’t full collie so the traits are slightly diluted. I couldn’t believe how obedient she could be and quick to learn and the next instant be completely deaf and hyper about something. I have had her just over a year now and she is just two and changing so much. She is a great companion , loving and focused, often the first on recall to the whistle and not forever wanting to hunt and chase. Just the occasional deafness appears!
Hope you get some help and things improve. Use her brain but don’t get her hyper excited.
Thanks Chiffy, that means a lot coming from you, whose dogs are absolutely beautifully behaved.
Collies are definitely a very special breed of dog, they are not one I would recommend to most people.
 

BBP

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The first thing is, you are not alone! I have learned that a good collie can make you feel like a bad dog trainer very quickly! You have a great advantage here in that your collie is very ball/toy oriented. My collie has no interest in toys whatsoever usually, so I can't use them as a distraction or aid to my training. For him, learning to engage in a toy is training in itself.

I fully empathise with the frustrations of having a car chaser. For one thing it makes what should be a nice relaxing stroll with your dog into something quite the opposite if you have to walk along roads or through car parks. For another it leaves you on edge about what would happen if your dog was off lead or escaped and encountered a car (/tractor/off road bike).

I tried a sheepdog trainer but he was not a nice or kind person, and was pretty horrible to and about my dog, so I gave up on that idea immediately. I have now (and I can't believe my luck) moved my horses to a place where the field next door is owned by a lovely lady who has trained dogs, and specifically agility, all her life, including professionally. I'm incredibly lucky that she has made us her project.

The first and biggest step for us is distance. If the dog can't focus on me in the house, then he won't focus in the garden, if he won't focus in the garden, he won't focus out in the field, and if he won't focus out in the field he certainly can't focus on me whilst walking next to a busy road when he is full of anxiety and chase drive.

We are playing lots of games together to get his focus on me, I guess they are similar to those promoted by absolute dogs, but with this ladys own touch, making being near me a great place to be. For many people this is obvious, of course your dog wants to be near you, but for those of us with dogs with a high level of chase drive and/or some anxiety, when it comes to a chase situation, us humans rarely compare to the thrill of it...unless we put in serious work to make ourselves interesting. Whether that is food or toys or games or whatever. We are building this bond and moving it out of the house and into bigger, more interesting but safe spaces. Now I can stand 15 feet from the road (dog on a long line) and throw bits of food around for him to sniff out, or ask for tricks, or do some heel work and obedience stuff and he will stay engaged with me. but I have to be constantly 'at work' watching his body language, if he cocks an ear to a car then I have to be quick to do something to get his focus back on me.

Right now we can do this about 15 feet from a relatively busy road, in an environment he is familiar with. if I was to move to 10 feet from the road, he might not be ready yet, and might go back to clamping down to the floor and wanting to chase. I have to make sure I have his focus and relaxation before I increase the difficulty for him. His drive is still so strong that i cannot walk along a footpath at the side of the road without him wanting to drop, so I try to avoid them to avoid rehearsing the behaviour, but if I do have to, as sometime we do, then we just do our best to get through it. If he needs to drop to the floor I do let him, usually he will drop but no longer launches as they go past, so I allow that for now. If I was to try to make him keep walking I find he gets more likely to launch at them as they come past. I have to put my emotions completely away, no matter how frustrating it can be (especially when you see other people and their dogs walking along completely ignoring passing cars!). He picks up on any extra tension from me. I am now a way more chilled person than I was the first year that I had him. I was sooooo stressed out all the time and I think it made our issues worse. So now I am chilled out and try t think positive as much as possible.

He has just started pole work and basic agility stuff (her field is not secure and is near a road, so I can't safely let him off lead to progress too far yet. But he is really enjoying what we are doing. I do scent work for him too, as another way of tiring him out. Even with the trainers and Craig Ogilvies help we haven't got him engaged in toys yet, we get the occasional interest but no obsessiveness. I used to think my old collies frisbee/ball obsession was annoying, but now I realise how useful it was, and how hard it is to work with a dog that has no interest in a toy but loves to chase (hes a very odd dog, but is teaching me to think outside my usual parameters).

Its incredibly rewarding doing all this training, I'm getting some really beautiful moments with him, stuff other people might take for granted, but feels really special to me.

Sorry, I have rambled on a whole lot there. I hope at least some is helpful.
 

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I feel your pain OP as JB and Chiffy know I have a similar problem . My 13 month old has a very high prey drive combined with anxiety outside - this leads to lack of connection outside , compulsion to chase etc it is very wearing and challenging . I too would avoid fly ball as it can make the dog more hyper. Mine loves agility but lockdown has been a massive problem for us and we have not been able to do this for months. You need to consistently train her and keep her engaged with you as the centre . Mine zones out behaviourally outside and both my collie trainer , vet and behaviourist say that she is pretty extreme and for months we have been wondering if she should be rehomed. But we make a little progress each day and taking a ball in a walk helps with other distractions . See if you can teach her retrieve so that she brings the ball back to you to throw again if she is just dropping it without interest after a few yards ( mine dies this as she then focuses in something else ). CC ball in a rope is a good idea - although we just cut a tennis ball so that some of the covering is a loose flap and she likes to carry it like that and flip it in the air . I’m afraid that you have a long way to go but as JB has shown it will be worth it. Whether mine stays with us or not I don’t know Yet. She cannot be walked anywhere near a road as she is frightened of vehicles and needs to be about 100 metres from cars to be relaxed , as you can imagine this is very challenging for us, but she is now coping with car parks as cars are moving slowly. I think you have lots of good advice on here but the key is the connection between you both and not putting the dog in situations that they cannot cope with . I wish you the best of luck.
 

Moobli

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Is there a local person that can help you train her on sheep? Many of the obedience and agility people I know do some stock work too to help their dogs not be neurotic nutballs.

I would only really recommend training your dog on sheep if you are committed to keeping it up and can get to training sessions several times a week or, better still, get some sheep of your own. It is very much a case of "shake the bottle, wake the drink" with sheep work in collies. All those generations of selectively bred ancestors don't often make for a relaxed, pet dog. It is not a hobby to only take to half-heartedly. A part-trained collie is a liability around stock so you need to be prepared to invest a lot of time.

Have you looked at scentwork as well as agility? I am another who probably wouldn't recommend flyball for an already highly strung, reactive, slightly anxious dog. Agility is great for working body and brain, and scentwork is ideal for tiring busy brains and relaxing tense bodies. You will also find a support network and wealth of experience at a club if you join when lockdown allows.

All our collies are full-time working sheepdogs so we don't tend to see many of the problems associated with collies kept as pets, but the tendencies are definitely there if not harnessed appropriately. The reality is that border collies bred for work are highly energetic, smart and intense but can also be obsessive, neurotic and reactive. You need to appreciate the strengths she has been bred for and find a way to provide an outlet for her strong herding instincts that doesn't involve cars, bikes or children, but also embrace the potential negatives and find a way to manage them so you can enjoy a rewarding life together.
 
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The first thing is, you are not alone! I have learned that a good collie can make you feel like a bad dog trainer very quickly! You have a great advantage here in that your collie is very ball/toy oriented. My collie has no interest in toys whatsoever usually, so I can't use them as a distraction or aid to my training. For him, learning to engage in a toy is training in itself.

I fully empathise with the frustrations of having a car chaser. For one thing it makes what should be a nice relaxing stroll with your dog into something quite the opposite if you have to walk along roads or through car parks. For another it leaves you on edge about what would happen if your dog was off lead or escaped and encountered a car (/tractor/off road bike).

I tried a sheepdog trainer but he was not a nice or kind person, and was pretty horrible to and about my dog, so I gave up on that idea immediately. I have now (and I can't believe my luck) moved my horses to a place where the field next door is owned by a lovely lady who has trained dogs, and specifically agility, all her life, including professionally. I'm incredibly lucky that she has made us her project.

The first and biggest step for us is distance. If the dog can't focus on me in the house, then he won't focus in the garden, if he won't focus in the garden, he won't focus out in the field, and if he won't focus out in the field he certainly can't focus on me whilst walking next to a busy road when he is full of anxiety and chase drive.

We are playing lots of games together to get his focus on me, I guess they are similar to those promoted by absolute dogs, but with this ladys own touch, making being near me a great place to be. For many people this is obvious, of course your dog wants to be near you, but for those of us with dogs with a high level of chase drive and/or some anxiety, when it comes to a chase situation, us humans rarely compare to the thrill of it...unless we put in serious work to make ourselves interesting. Whether that is food or toys or games or whatever. We are building this bond and moving it out of the house and into bigger, more interesting but safe spaces. Now I can stand 15 feet from the road (dog on a long line) and throw bits of food around for him to sniff out, or ask for tricks, or do some heel work and obedience stuff and he will stay engaged with me. but I have to be constantly 'at work' watching his body language, if he cocks an ear to a car then I have to be quick to do something to get his focus back on me.

Right now we can do this about 15 feet from a relatively busy road, in an environment he is familiar with. if I was to move to 10 feet from the road, he might not be ready yet, and might go back to clamping down to the floor and wanting to chase. I have to make sure I have his focus and relaxation before I increase the difficulty for him. His drive is still so strong that i cannot walk along a footpath at the side of the road without him wanting to drop, so I try to avoid them to avoid rehearsing the behaviour, but if I do have to, as sometime we do, then we just do our best to get through it. If he needs to drop to the floor I do let him, usually he will drop but no longer launches as they go past, so I allow that for now. If I was to try to make him keep walking I find he gets more likely to launch at them as they come past. I have to put my emotions completely away, no matter how frustrating it can be (especially when you see other people and their dogs walking along completely ignoring passing cars!). He picks up on any extra tension from me. I am now a way more chilled person than I was the first year that I had him. I was sooooo stressed out all the time and I think it made our issues worse. So now I am chilled out and try t think positive as much as possible.

He has just started pole work and basic agility stuff (her field is not secure and is near a road, so I can't safely let him off lead to progress too far yet. But he is really enjoying what we are doing. I do scent work for him too, as another way of tiring him out. Even with the trainers and Craig Ogilvies help we haven't got him engaged in toys yet, we get the occasional interest but no obsessiveness. I used to think my old collies frisbee/ball obsession was annoying, but now I realise how useful it was, and how hard it is to work with a dog that has no interest in a toy but loves to chase (hes a very odd dog, but is teaching me to think outside my usual parameters).

Its incredibly rewarding doing all this training, I'm getting some really beautiful moments with him, stuff other people might take for granted, but feels really special to me.

Sorry, I have rambled on a whole lot there. I hope at least some is helpful.
That was so helpful and really was an eye opener to me I’m very glad you shared that story with me and I wish you the best of luck with your dog to.
 
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I’m not sure if anybody can also help with this but she has a huge problem of “shadow hunting” is what I call it. It’s where if she sees a shadow or a dot of light she’ll lung at it and looked like a snow fox diving into snow and you I don’t know what it is but you can stop her fixation on that thing and when I go to bed and have my lamp on she’ll go for my shadow. Can anyone help with this too. This is her shadow hunting outside and she won’t stop till the shadows gone then she’ll find another one.
 

twiggy2

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What's she fed?
How much excersising does she get each day?
On lead/off lead?
Does she get to socialise and play with other dogs?
How long is she left each day?
All the above are great suggestions but will make a fitter dog, you need to engage her brain and sloe her body to tire her out.
Increases in adrenaline do nothing to create a calmer dog.
Feel free to private message me for suggestions but I may be without Internet for a while as am moving today and am not sure what the signal is like at the new place.
 

BBP

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What's she fed?
How much excersising does she get each day?
On lead/off lead?
Does she get to socialise and play with other dogs?
How long is she left each day?
All the above are great suggestions but will make a fitter dog, you need to engage her brain and sloe her body to tire her out.
Increases in adrenaline do nothing to create a calmer dog.
Feel free to private message me for suggestions but I may be without Internet for a while as am moving today and am not sure what the signal is like at the new place.
I definitely agree with this. Building in a lot of calm, quiet moments is really important. So whilst we do games and activities I am careful not to over work him or get him overly fit, and we take breaks to sit and chill, so he learns that even once he has been doing exciting things he is still ok to switch off and relax and not be constantly waiting for something.
 

JennBags

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Funnily enough I was just coming back to this thread to say by the way, don't overstimulate! They must be taught quiet times amongst the other stuff. Juno gets totally hyper when she's overstimulated.
She definitely needs something to channel her away from this behaviour, so you are going to need to interact with her a lot so that instead of looking for shadows to chase, she is looking to you for play.
 

Moobli

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I agree calming training (teaching her to rest on her bed etc) is a good idea as well as the scentwork I mentioned earlier but I also believe that a high energy dog needs plenty of physical exercise as well as mental. You can't put a square peg in a round hole. Whereabouts in the country are you?
 
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