Border collie litter siblings

irishdraft

Well-Known Member
Joined
13 November 2009
Messages
1,724
Visit site
Hi guys
Has anyone had experience of trying to train border collie litter siblings, we were silly enough to take litter pups, brother and sister. We have done quite a bit of basic training with them and also walk and train them indivdually and they are quite good. The main problem is that if they see another dog/s nearby they go potty, barking hysterically if on lead or if off chasing after the other dog and the dog pup can be rather agressive, he has been castrated. If we take them out together off lead we have no hope of recalling them if they see another dog. I realise they are still very young but we cannot understand why they should behave like this. We have had collies before and they have never been like this, we are getting to the point we think we will never be able to take them for a walk together in case we meet another dog. Any training tips/thoughts gratefully received. They do go to puppy training classes indivdually where they are not too bad, it is mainly when out and about that this happens.
confused.gif
confused.gif
 

CorvusCorax

Justified & Ancient
Joined
15 January 2008
Messages
57,217
Location
Mu Mu Land
Visit site
I would do lots of one on one training and lots of focus training - I am going to copy and paste from another forum here, I hope you don't mind, but the sentiment is the same and am a bit to tired and scunnered to type a huge reply
tongue.gif


Basically the idea is that you are more exciting than any other person, thing, dog, distraction, whatever. YOU are in charge, you do not need protecting and they do NOT get to tank off when they feel like it, especially to be antisocial (or playful - they play on your say-so)

I know a couple of GSDs like this, I think it is the height of bad manners and their owners are not bothered about it, so kudos for you for trying to sort it. I really wouldn't let them off lead where you know you are going to meet other dogs, until you get it sorted, and keep up the training class, as you will have loads of sensible, steady dogs to practise with and try and get them out of this fixation in a controlled atmosphere without annoying random members of the public.
Do NOT isolate them from other dogs as you will only make the sense of frustration worse.

So, the C&P bit - the principal of focus '

"You want this ball ? - Watch me.

You want this treat? Watch me.

You want this tug? Watch me.

You want to play the tug of war? Watch me.

You want your food bowl? Watch me.

You want to get out of the crate? Watch me.

You want to go for a walk? Watch me.

You want to get out of the car? Watch me.

You want to do some trainng? Watch me.

You want me to open this door,so you can pass through? Watch me.

You get the idea. There is your focus."

Use a command like 'watch' or 'close'.
You can also get focus from food or a toy, held high, near your face or on your left hand side, with the dog at your left.
Start this in the home, then in the garden, holding their gaze for longer and longer and rewarding as such.
Then introduce when out and about, with distractions. Keep them on a lead or long line to begin with.

When they start to zone out, before the barking even starts, when the eyes lock on and the hackles go up, give them a little pop on the lead and 'NO' or 'Ah Ah' - then when they look up at you, reward.

You can also put them on a long line in the interim so there is a physical barrier to them being able to tank off. When they come to the end of the line, they will get a pop on the neck. When they look back at you - what was THAT? - then you can recall and praise/reward.

What age are they?
Gonna send you a video. I have siblings too, it is hard but you will get there in the end x

Have you tried letting them off one at a time, so that one entices the other to stay close?
 

irishdraft

Well-Known Member
Joined
13 November 2009
Messages
1,724
Visit site
Hi cavecanem

thanx for reply, the collies are just 7 months, not very old I know, yes we have tried having one on lead and one off, but these days we tend to take them separately or my husband takes them together plus our terrier, who dosent help matters, Im so busy with horses at this time of year. We have been trying to do the training you have suggested but how long does this have to go on for, my husband is getting very dispirited as they charged off again tonite and he feels he's at square one again with them. The dog pup seems to have a very strong sense of smell and will put his nose to the ground and go even if we have the bitch on the lead, rather strange for a collie.
 

soloabe

Well-Known Member
Joined
14 May 2009
Messages
4,683
Location
Washington USA
Visit site
If they charge off there is no way i would be letting them off the lead.
And with some dogs you have to just continually train them all their life.

Good advice CC

If your husband is getting dispirited after such a short time he has a long road ahead of him.
 

CorvusCorax

Justified & Ancient
Joined
15 January 2008
Messages
57,217
Location
Mu Mu Land
Visit site
I would be going with long lining them until they are a bit more under control.

I understand, the weather is crap, you're both busy, it's a pain in the bum.
Personally speaking I worked with my boy for a year to get him good with other dogs and it was hard but it was worth it for the dog he is now, rather than me being a basket case and him being PTS.
Even ten minutes of focus a few times a day helps, when the tea is on the go, as you watch tv, it all mounts up.

Collies are very quick to learn but they do need a lot of stimulation as you will already know, if they have a training 'plan' with goals for where you want to get to and how and when, I bet all of you will see an improvement. You do need to do it now, seven months is young yes, they are pups, but only three months away from a year old...the older they get the tougher it will be so it is worth putting the groundwork in now.

I let my fella slide and didn't start training him properly until he was a year old. Don't do what I did!!!

You WILL get there.
 

Indy

Well-Known Member
Joined
9 February 2006
Messages
1,031
Location
South Yorkshire
Visit site
I've got brother and sister border collies. They're 3 year old now.

I've never done any formal training with either of them - together or on a one to one basis. Mika the boy can get a bit gobby at other dogs when he's on the lead but we divert his attention by playing with a ball - they both find a ball so much more interesting than any other dog. One thing I do now is put them on a lead when a dog is approaching and make them both sit and wait quietly for the dog to pass and they we play with the ball when the dog has gone. They have both picked up that sitting quietly means playtime afterwards or doing somersaults and acting like knobbers means they get ingored and end up staying on the leads. The ball has help with their recall too. They can be rabbitting in the woods out of sight and one squeak from the ball and Mika and Flyn will be there ready for a game like a shot.

Not sure if it's the way dog training should be but the squeaky ball is the way to go!
 

CorvusCorax

Justified & Ancient
Joined
15 January 2008
Messages
57,217
Location
Mu Mu Land
Visit site
Yep, that kind of diversion is perfect. Ball = Cool! Looking at other dog = boring!

The only thing I would worry about is keeping one dog still while another dog passes, for my dog that created a kind of 'Mexican stand-off' which would heighten frustration (HEY, why is HE moving and I am not?) I like to keep everything forwards and animated, but the principle is the same.
But what works, works
smile.gif


We look like a three-ring circus, when another dog comes along, 'Hey! What's this? Wow! Good boy! **insert lots of silly noises**
tongue.gif
'

I am the squeaky toy, sadly, I call them back in a very silly, high pitched voice, I sound like a right berk.
 

Indy

Well-Known Member
Joined
9 February 2006
Messages
1,031
Location
South Yorkshire
Visit site
The thing with Mika and Flyn is that as soon as they clock the ball they completely zone out of the real world and it's just me them and the ball.

I took them to Cleethorpes last year onto the beach and I think every dog in Humberside went on the same day. There were dogs all over the beach but as soon as the ball came out they just became oblivious to the world! It's amazing - one minute they will be just about to cause carnage, a squeak of the ball and me shouting 'playtime' and it's like they've become hypnotised.

Funny thing is they just didn't get Flyball!

Once you've found the 'thing' what your collies pups 'zone' out to you will find them easier to train.

Says me - Cesar Millan I am not!
 

maxweg

Well-Known Member
Joined
24 June 2008
Messages
90
Visit site
Hi

don't beat yorself about taking on two pups from the same litter!!! the one to blame is the breeder!

I occassionally breed KC reg border collie's, mainly for the show ring or just good quality pets and I dont know of any accredited breeder that would allow two pups to go to the same family , any genuine caring breeder would never allow this as we all want our pups to get the best start in life and know how difficult it is to have two pups the same age.

i really do wish you well , you will get there in the end it may just take a bit longer and you obviously care about your dogs or you wouldn't be doing this, so good luck
 

Indy

Well-Known Member
Joined
9 February 2006
Messages
1,031
Location
South Yorkshire
Visit site
Don't really agree with that but hey ho.

Like I said I've got brother and sister (they are farmbred though not show bred collies) and I haven't had a problem with either of them. If anything they have a natural ability to learn and bounce of each other which in turn compliments their behaviour. They are naturals at herding sheep (we own a flock of sheep - it's not just random sheep in a field) and they work in tandem. They have a very controlled and orthodox manner towards training - they listen, the observe and once it's in it's retained. It's just finding which buttons to press.
 

CorvusCorax

Justified & Ancient
Joined
15 January 2008
Messages
57,217
Location
Mu Mu Land
Visit site
I don't agree either, the person who sold us our two is a very, very experienced breeder.

Plenty of breeders and show people run two puppies from the same litter?
 

maxweg

Well-Known Member
Joined
24 June 2008
Messages
90
Visit site
from your many postings on dog issues you are obviously very experianced with dogs unfortunatley not everyone is as knowledgeable as you. I am commenting on my personal opinions and those of friends that are KC accredited breeders. I would prefer my dogs to go out individually unless I knew the person and I was convinced they could manage.

I just want the best for any of my pups. Just my preferance and opinions!!!
 

CorvusCorax

Justified & Ancient
Joined
15 January 2008
Messages
57,217
Location
Mu Mu Land
Visit site
Nah, I am just a massive geek who spends far too much time with four-legged people instead of humans
blush.gif


I do agree, with inexperienced people, litter siblings would be a headache for most.
The fact that the OP said they have had collies before led me to believe that they are not novices
smile.gif


(Not saying that I will ever have siblings again
tongue.gif
blush.gif
)
 

FinnishLapphund

There's no cow on the ice
Joined
28 June 2008
Messages
11,250
Location
w(b)est coast of Sweden
Visit site
But it is different for a breeder and/or show people to keep two themselves, also I don't think you (and/or your mother) qualifies for the category average puppy/dog buyer CaveCanem (you're overqualified).


All books I've ever read, almost all people I've ever heard say anything about it, says ''Never buy two puppy litter siblings at the same time.'' Though it is not a rule without exceptions, for many average buyers of a puppy or young dog, it can be overwhelming e.g. to have two puppies to house break at the same time, to have the time to teach them how it is to go for separate walks/not be too dependant on each other etc.



I know of a Zoo owner who had been owning dogs for several years when she fell in love with two litter siblings, experienced as she was, the breeder allowed her to buy the two bitch puppies she wanted and in a way it worked, but when one of them died, as I recall, around 11 years old, the owner sadly realised how dependant on each other she had allowed her two litter siblings to become. For the remaining around 11 years old bitch, it was very difficult to have to learn to be alone, go for walks as a single dog and e.g. on those walks she became a completely different bitch, scared, insecure and mostly unhappy. And Sweden isn't ''drowning'' in unwanted puppies/dogs (yet ***touches wood***) so she couldn't just go out and get a ''replacement'' at once.






In case someone who does not own a Border Collie reads this, remember that Border Collies and some other breeds have been bred to work together with their owners for a long while but all breeds does not work the same, e.g. in comparison my Spitzes, though they have also been used as herders, they have been bred to work more freely and independently, so though that my dogs want to please me (most of the time) and they can learn a lot, they do not go around looking for me to teach them things.


Also not all breeds have been bred to focus on their work the same way as Border Collies, neither do their work with such precision as Border Collies. For me and my dogs, triggers, such as a squeaky ball, works but they can lose interest/become distracted/bored if asked to focus for to long, especially in the beginning.




As for Pearlly, I wish you good luck, though I kept two of Jonna's puppies, that I think it have been quite easy, I think I've managed to make them neither dependant on each other or their mother and though I would not hesitate to do it again, I still would not in general recommend getting two puppies/young dogs at the same time to anybody.
 

FinnishLapphund

There's no cow on the ice
Joined
28 June 2008
Messages
11,250
Location
w(b)est coast of Sweden
Visit site
confused.gif


But I said it was not a rule without exceptions, I kept two myself and I certainly does not consider getting rid of any of them, if it works for you and your dogs, it is the same for you. Besides you don't have to agree with me.



a050.gif
 

maxweg

Well-Known Member
Joined
24 June 2008
Messages
90
Visit site
good comments cavecanem! I have a couple of friends that have bought two pups from same litter, reteivers and westies and it was a nightmare and although we laugh now they were pulling their hair out , not the dogs !! but theirs!. took so long for house training and general training.

when I have bred the odd litter I am extremley protective of the pups, so many people "talk the talk" but I can usually tell the genuine ones. I am proud to say that all my pups have gone to fab homes so i must be doing something right!!
 
Top