Borderline Laminitis - But can't be worked!! Help!!!!

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michnb

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Hi, I was wondering whether anyone can help. After four months of being turned away, my pony has just been diagnosed with Osteo-Arthritis (or Bone Spavin) in his offhind and will never be ridden again, a big problem in itself, but after so long on good grass he is majorly obese and probably a condition score 4 or 5. His crest is huge and I can see him getting Lamy any day now.
He's on restricted grazing, but I don't really see this as a solution, it's not getting rid of the fat, just stopping him from getting any fatter!! I've only ever had this problem with a horse who can be worked, so, does anyone know if you can, and how you can, get a horse to lose weight without exercise??? My boss has suggested feeding Barley Straw, but I can see this leading to Impaction Colic....
Please, please, please help, he really can't get Lamy, especially with this Arthritis, he HAS to lose weight, I just don't know how he can when I can't work it off!!!!!!!!! Any help really appreciated!! Thanks!!
 
You could clip him. Either full clip and give him just a light rug at night, or blanket clip and be hard - no rug on unless it's positively foul. But obviously leave his legs in as you want to keep his joints warm.

I knew a really fat RDA pony that lived out all year with a blanket clip and no rug.

Edited to add a few more ideas:

Grazing muzzle?
Long-reining - that will get you fit!
Can he stand in in the mornings with very well-soaked hay (grass has more sugars during the morning).

 
Hi Llewelyn, thank you so much for your reply!! Thats brilliant, thank you, I hadnt even thought of clipping him!! He stays out 24-7 at the moment, anyway, with rugs, so I will have to grit my teeth, cut it all off and leave him naked!!!!! Thank you!!
We tried a grazing muzzle a few years ago. Went out and spent a load on one of those GreenGuard pieces, but our only problem is that our field is very public and is right next to a children's playground; after an hour it had been stolen and I then had some silly people come over and threaten to report us to the RSPCA for cruelty and give us loads of abuse, so we can't use that anymore which is annoying.
Also, the long-reining is a very good idea. It's what I use on my other horses to get them fit, and I spoke to my Vet about it, but he said it would put too much stress on his legs. We've litrally got to keep his movement to a complete minimum, which is the problem we've got...
Yes, I think I've definately got to start bringing him in for a bit. We're already trying to soak our hay as much as possible to get rid of the sugars. I didn't realise the grass has more sugar in it in the morning, thats very interesting, thank you, its a very good point, I'll have to try and bring him in for a bit each morning with half a section or something...
Thank you so much for your help, really. Any ideas at all are a real help!! Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
MichNB - there was a fabulous tiny coloured pony on livery at the yard I'm at about a year ago. He was only teensy - maybe 11 hh and totally gorgeous with a humungus mane and tail. But he was as fat as a pig and had had a couple of pre-laminitic episodes. His cresty neck was a sight to behold, it truly was. I think he'd been on a vast acreage of lush grazing and had paid the penalty. Anyway, his situation was so dire that it called for extreme measures and he was taken off the lush grazing and moved to my yard where he was stabled 24/7 with the rock bottom minimum amount of hay, soaked to within an inch of its life. Natch, he wasn't impressed with this but he got used to it after a week or so. The thing is, you have to be cruel to be kind once a horse gets that close to laminitis. If your ned was mine, I'd do the same, and then I'd leave the country for 3 months coz it will be as hard for you as it would be for your ned. But at the end of it you have a slim, safe ned and all you have to do is buy a weigh tape and never let it happen again. Good luck x
 
Get a shires grazing muzzle (much cheaper than Green guard (about £15) and restrict the grazing more), go slightly big and then it won't rub at all. Put signs round the field stating the horse is wearing a muzzle for medical reasons and its removal could result in death. If you get threatened with the RSPCA, tell'em to go for it, then the RSPCA can tell them that your right and they are wrong!
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Right my advise having a laminitic prone shettie; Works very very well!.......... If you have electric fencing, make a track around the paddock with the water at one end so they have to walk around to get to it. As PiebaldEaster says a shires muzzle are brilliant, and don't be put off by threats of abuse for using one, the RSPCA will be more concered to see a fat pony with laminitis!

If you stable her don't starve her, use a weigh tape to guestimate how much she weighs and give 1 and a half % of body weight of hay prefferably soaked for 12 hours. Put in a small holed haynet so it lasts longer.

Don't put rugs on, none of my natives have a rug on ever!! Don't give any other feed either. She will lose weight eventually, it might take a long time, but thats better than a quick fix, just like us humans!

Good luck
 
You could bring in during theday and out at night, when there is less sugar. I wouldnt stable for more than this or the arthritis will get worse. Remove rugs so that he uses his food to keep warm, by using rugs he is able to turn food into fat instead of warmth. (i.e. more calories than is needed for day to day living = fat!). Next winter do not rug except for a summer turnout when it is wet and windy. No HW full necks!
Dont starve him but use soaked hay. Soaking removes the water soluble carbohydrates but you need to give access to a mineral block, for example, to replace the lost minerals. Not one that is mollasses based though. Leaving a horse without food just creates other problems.
Can you get some sheep or put ohers in his field to get rid of most of the grass?
 
This is fantastic!!! I really can't thank all of you enough!!! Thank you!!!
I think I'm going to see how he goes with even more restricted grazing, no rugs or hard food - just soaked hay - and a muzzle right now.
Jakesmydog I love your idea about the water maze, thats genius!! I may just add that to his pen, I just wonder whether I should be making him walk that much??? What do you think??
I'm going to try and talk to my friend about stabling him next door to her horse - who never goes out anyway - either in the mornings or for part of the day - and if he gets along okay, we may start trying to keep him in for a day, then out for a day, I just don't want him standing in on hard concrete for too long just in case.....
Lord, am I sounding really fussy??? I really don't mean to if I do. I'm so, so, so grateful for everyone's help, really. It's got the point where if he doesnt lose some weight, his joints just wont be able to take it, and my parents are already dying to give him to the first buyer, which I refuse to let happen!! Once again, thank you all so, so much for all your help, if anyone has any more ideas at all, please do get in touch, any tips I can get are a real help!! I've never had this sort of problem ever, and I really am feeling out of my depth, its great to have people who have been there and done it to give us some advice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks!!!!!!!
 
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I think the walking will do him the world of good, remember walking burns off calories as well as moving his joints
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Don't be hard on yourself, i was totally ignorant when it came to my shetland getting laminitis. I do bring mine in early am if its a sunny frosty morning as the sugars fight to reach the surface of the grass; So best bring in around 7am until 2/3pm if possible.
At least you recognise that you have a problem,
Hopefully yours wont get it, but always better to be safe than sorry!
 
Sorry, but whether the pony could be worked or not, it SHOULD NOT have been allowed to graze on lush grazing. The laminitis could have been avoided, simply by your action and you didn't take any.

Right, put him on a fenced area of about 20m x 20m, by day,keep a mask on him and stable him at night with a handful of something like Good Doer or Happy Hoof, and 1 SOAKED small slice of hay. Barley straw is fine to eat, it used to be hazardous 50 years ago but modern threshing is so efficient there isn't an awn left in it. Up here in the north we don't grow much wheat, only barley and every horse I know eats it with no harm.

Stick some magnetic boots on him too - good for the arthritis and improves the blood flow to the feet so aids the laminitis healing.

Good luck.
 
fatpiggy, the pony doesn't have laminitis, but could if he doesn't get the weight off.
1small slice of soaked hay for the whole night is starvation and should be avoided. The weight does not shift by starving them, that causes other problems with their gut and behaviour.
 
I have a pony at home who is lami prone. I have an acre paddock and have made a track round the perimeter using electric fencing. I feed well soaked hay...a bale a day between 3 ponies....scattered around the track so they have to move around alot. The track is very sparce grass wise as I've used it through the winter. It really works with fatties. I've been told that the grass in the middle of the field can be either cut for hay or used in winter when it has wilted...or if you have any other horses you can graze them on it.

This may be helpful...
http://www.webz.org.uk/emwnew/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=223&Itemid=68

or google Paddock Paradise
 
Thanks Jakesmydog, that’s brilliant, I've spoken to my friend about the stable next to her, so I'm hoping to be able to bring him in and put him in there so he's not on his own.
I really, really like the idea of the water maze, I may try it, his pen is only small, so I don't think walking around the outside of it should be too bad - I hope my Vet agrees!!! Hehe!!
Thanks for the advice Fatpiggy, I've got him in a small fenced off area in a bare part of the field with lots of shade and water, and we've got his some magnetic wraps, so fingers crossed!!!
I was feeding Happy Hoof, but then was told that it contains close to 10% of pure molasses, so now has only SpeediBeet (Lamy proof one) and his supplements twice daily, which I was thinking of cutting out, apart from the fact that I don't know how I can give him his supplements if I don't feed him............hhhhhmmmmm, still thinking about that....
Maybe I should explain my situation briefly. I've had horse for close to 15 years, and have never once (touching wood!!!!) had a laminitis case. Of course, I've worked with horses with laminitis, and know most of the facts, the only reason my little pony is so close to getting it is because, last Easter, he came in with an Inflammatory Granuloma on his spine and, after an operation to remove it, I was advised by my Vet to turn him away for half a year. In October, looking only faintly round, I brought him back into work, only to find straight away that he was lame.
Probably the stupidest thing I could ever do, I turned him back out until February, thinking the lameness would have gone and I could put him back into work. It hadn’t, and by this time he was just plain fat. My Vet came up, did some tests, and last Wednesday he was diagnosed with severe Bone Spavin. He'll never be ridden again, and I'll be very lucky if I can even hand walk him around the block. He's pretty much crippled by it - and he's only 6. As you can see, it’s left me with a problem: a fat pony who can't be worked. The reason I'm having so much trouble with this is because 1. I'm struggling to get used to the fact that my bouncy, hyper-active little pony will never be ridden again. 2. Having two other horses I the same field, I’m trying to think of a way to sort this without leaving any of them on their own and 3. Whenever I've had a fat horse in the past, I've simply put it on a fitness program and worked it off, something I can't do this time.
Once again, thank you all so much for all your help, I really can’t express just how grateful I am, I hope I don’t sound as fussy as I think I do (if that makes any sense!!!), as all of this really is so, so helpful. Every idea really does help!!!! Thank you!!!
- Sorry it’s so long!!!!!
 
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poor you, It is hard when you have three who need different managements. Mt three do as well, I just give the other two more feed. My shettie has a handful of Safe and Sound with Speedbeet, my other two who are worked get a scoop of each twice a day, and obviously more hay when they come in. You'd be surprised how little ponies and some horses can live off.

Alternatively you could strip graze your field, but make sure little fatty one has a muzzle on!
 
I was under the impression that with bone spavins the bones eventually fuse and that it's better to keep the horse moving - I would agree with the long reining or hand walking and try something like Devil's claw to help relieve the pain (it worked wonders on my cob with spavins) The worst thing you can do is stable him as his joints literally will seize up
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You may think that it's cruel but he needs to keep them moving in order to retain the mobility.

RE: the laminitis I'd echo those that have suggested a muzzle and strip him of his rugs etc to make sure he's using his own body reserves. The idea of a walk about to the drinking hole is a fantastic one
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Good luck!
Kate x
 
[ QUOTE ]
fatpiggy, the pony doesn't have laminitis, but could if he doesn't get the weight off.
1small slice of soaked hay for the whole night is starvation and should be avoided. The weight does not shift by starving them, that causes other problems with their gut and behaviour.

[/ QUOTE ]


No, IT IS NOT STARVATION. The pony has had access to limited grazing all day, and can nibble his bed at night when he has eaten his hay ration (ultra small holed haynet will occupy him for quite a while). All haynets should be weighed before soaking since a slice can vary in weight tremendously. I know perfectly well that true starvation can lead to the liver releasing fat into the blood and causing toxicity. It is about reducing the calorie intake, bearing in mind the pony isn't able to burn many calories. Eat more than you burn and you get fat. If the OP is determined to slim him down, she is going to have to be cruel to be kind. Which do you think is worse - a sulking pony who has received less food than he would like, but has at least had some, or one shut in its stable for the next 5 weeks with agonizingly painful feet, or even with a bullet in its head.
 
Sorry I beg to differ;
One small slice is NOT enough for the whole night; Yes I agree a slice can vary in weight, but an average slice is only around 4lb. I think you are being patronising, most people know to lose weight you have to cut down the calories and burn more off! Being cruel to be kind is not the way forward, the way forward is to do is gradually over a longish period of time with good management feed wise and exercise.
I know, I am a weight watchers gold member.
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I have had laminitics for 7 years and they have come back sound as a pound and healthier than ever, and not having a set back in over 6 years. There is light at the end of the tunnel;
Fatpiggy, seems like your cup is half empty instead of being half full.
 
I agree with jakesmydog. One small slice of hay is no where near enough. If you soak it you are removing the water soluble carbohydrate anyway, so you can feed more to ensure the gut has something to work on. Soaking IS cutting down the calories. The remaining food value is to give the gut something to utilise. Being without food for just a couple of hours can cause stomach ulcers. Sorry but you have to be very careful saying you have to be cruel to be kind so feed a tiny amount. It is not that black and white and can cause major problems. It is a very old fashioned idea to 'starve' a laminitic/fatty and one slice of hay for potentially 12/14 hours IS starvation!
 
How big is the pony??? No-one has asked this. You have ignored the fact that I pointed out a straw bed could be nibbled at night. My friend has a 29 year old about 13.2 which has been obese since she bought her 15 years ago - not her fault, the previous owner fed it mars bars and hard feed but little of anything to do it good. If you could see the MINUTE amount of hay she gave it at night (12 hours) you would have called the RSPCA. The pony didn't lose so much as a pound but it kept the laminitis at bay - until last year. The only thing which made her lose weight was a grazing mask. The starvation patch is tiny and was being grazed by 2 all day, and 3 horses had access to it overnight. What is patronising to tell it as it is? At the end of the day almost everbody I have ever met has drastically overfed their pet, horse, cat or dog. Any vet will tell you that obese animals are a major problem. Animals in the wild have to work to find their food, and what they get is usually poor quality - think Welsh hillside with gorse, bog grass and scrub. We stuff them full of high energy coarse feed, rye grass and carrots (mostly sugar) and then wonder why we have problems. When I was a kid you hardly ever saw laminitis, but then you didn't see so many fat people either.
 
Anyways, we all agree, as with humans, a sensible diet and exercise.

I do agree with you though that most people overfeed their animals. A lot of our grazing these days has been used for fattening cattle so is very rich, so that doesn't help.

And kids are getting bigger nowadays because its safer to stay in and watch tv and play on computers; they do pe for a few hours a week, when we used to do it for at least an hour a day. We used to going out after school and come in when it gets dark and spend all the summer holidays outside playing on the fields.
 
I cant find where it says the pony is bedded on straw???
Unless the pony is a miniature shetland, one slice of hay is not enough.
With regards to your friends pony- it has been proven that if horses are too severely restricted from food when they do get to eat they actually eat far more in the short space of time than they would normally do. The use of the grazing muzzle helped it lose weight because that restricted the amount of grass (i.e. high energy food) that it could eat. If hay is soaked before feeding it has no energy value, hence why you soak it. Horses guts are designed to recieve food little and often, for approx 20 hours a day. By soaking the hay you can mimic this but without the risk of giving more energy than the horse needs. As i said earlier, giving minute amounts is an old fashioned and ignorant practice that can cause more harm than good.
Another point- in some cses, hard grazed areas such as starvation paddocks have also been shown to stress the grass present resulting in higher sugar levels.
I am not disputing that you need to reduce calories nor that most people over feed, just that knowledge has moved on from the view of 'starving'.
 
Hi MichNB
You are right to worry, with this sunny weather the grass is just waiting for a splash of rain and it will really kick off.

I would ring one of the feed companies and speak to a nutritionalist (seems odd when the last thing you need is feed!) they will advise you on the optimum weight for your horse (you will need to know current weight from a weigh tape) and will work out the correct % of forage to bodyweight ratio to ensure he gets safely to his optimum weight. I found D&H very good.

It is a nightmare but act now to avoid an attack. It is hard for you to start with because your pony has stocked up on body fat so it will be a long job.

My would-be laminitic's weight stays pretty much the same all year round now due to strict adhering to the % forage v bodyweight rule. He is weighed every month so that any changes can be dealt with promptly. He is now very old and has no teeth but is still sensitive to fructan overload.

All my horses are good doers and I use the winter to pull them down (really mean mummy).

ETS I have found this very good web page

Best of luck with him, if you squeeze his crest tomorrow and it is hard you will need to act fast (but I expect you know this
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)
 
Contact 'John the vet' http://www.johnthevet.com he's a retired vet who specialises in lamintis, he tried to help my old cob but unfortunately all 4 of his pedal bones dropped and was passed help, mines the coloured on his web site. Johns very good and will be very happy to answer any questions.
Can you take him out for walks and keep him in during the day and limit grazing at night?
 


















[ QUOTE ]
I cant find where it says the pony is bedded on straw???
Unless the pony is a miniature shetland, one slice of hay is not enough.
With regards to your friends pony- it has been proven that if horses are too severely restricted from food when they do get to eat they actually eat far more in the short space of time than they would normally do. The use of the grazing muzzle helped it lose weight because that restricted the amount of grass (i.e. high energy food) that it could eat. If hay is soaked before feeding it has no energy value, hence why you soak it. Horses guts are designed to recieve food little and often, for approx 20 hours a day. By soaking the hay you can mimic this but without the risk of giving more energy than the horse needs. As i said earlier, giving minute amounts is an old fashioned and ignorant practice that can cause more harm than good.
Another point- in some cses, hard grazed areas such as starvation paddocks have also been shown to stress the grass present resulting in higher sugar levels.
I am not disputing that you need to reduce calories nor that most people over feed, just that knowledge has moved on from the view of 'starving'.

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For goodness sake, it my friend's pony ISN'T BEING STARVED. She is turned out on a starvation patch which grows like you've never seen, despite being grazed constantly (it used to be a potato field so grows very rich grass and clover), for 12 hours, then has a false feed, a small haynet (2 slices at the moment) with very tiny holes and she eats her bed steadily. She is 29 years old now so my friend must have been doing something right all this time. And while we are at it, when she did get laminitis last year, she went on box rest and at the VET'S INSTRUCTION was given only oat straw to eat for 3 weeks. How do you think a pony in a riding school copes, with being used for 7 hours a day - they don't get food during that period generally. As long as a little food is going through steadily, the gut is happy. My own mare eats tiny haynets compared with her neighbour next door who is very similar in age and build. He loses weight easily despite the intake, mine eats only as much as she feels like and is a healthy weight. The OP's pony needs to lose weight to relieve its joints as well as to prevent laminitis.
 

Hi, sorry I haven’t replied in a while – my internets been down :S !!!! Thank you for all the advice, I put the water maze up a few days back, and it’s been fantastic!!!! There’s just one thing I’ve found a bit worrying about it that he seems not to be drinking as much. He was getting through about a quarter of a tanker in 24hours, but now he only seems to be drinking maybe half of that. Is it something that I should be worried about, or not?? He doesn’t seem to be scared of it, and I’ve led him through it a few times so he knows what to do. I mean, its not like he’s stopped drinking completely, he’s still getting through quite a bit, just not as much, I’m probably just being hypochondriacal, but I thought I’d just ask…
Also, about the hay, I’ve been feeding him two sections of well-soaked hay a day, one section in a pile on the floor, and one section in a small-holed haynet hung from a branch of the tree so that he can’t pin it against anything and has to fight for it (very amusing to watch, although I don’t think he was very impressed!!!
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), but I was wondering, there is a bit of grass coming through in his pen, should I still be feeding him the hay, or should I wait until he has munched all the grass first?? I was just wondering whether hay, hard feed and grass is a bit too much to be giving him?? I’ve got my donkey in with him at the moment as a companion, and also as a lawn-mower (she’s like a mini hoover; any grass left and she’ll get there first!!!!!! Hehe!!!) So I don’t know whether that will make any difference…
Whilst on the subject of hard food, thank you very much for the tips Rebel1990 and Thistle, it’s something I’ve really been struggling with at the moment, so I think I may give someone a ring. One of my friends advised feeding ReadiGrass – has anyone had any experience with it?? I’m a bit wary of it due to the fact that it doesn’t seem to be Lamy Trust Proven, and also the fact that if I’m trying to limit his grazing, is it smart to give him a bowl full of the stuff??? Isn’t it just contradicting what I’m trying to do?? What does everyone think?? Should I just stick with the SpeediBeet???? Sorry about all the questions :S
He’s also been without rugs for the past few nights, so I’m hoping that that’s getting him moving around a bit more. About the bone spavins which Kate asked about, this is something that I was thinking as well, I had heard of horses suffering from Bone Spavins having a few months off before coming back into work and continuing pretty much as they had beforehand, and begun wondering as well, but having spoken at length with my vet it seems (sorry if this makes no sense, I don’t really understand it myself…) that the two bones affected (I think it’s the Proximal and Distal Intertarsal) are so wasted that even if they do fuse (which only 40% do) they still wouldn’t be able to do their job of absorbing the impact of the work. We’ve also spoken about the drugs on the market, all of which seem to need either joint space or cartilage to be injected into, both of which Wolfie seems to have none of left… So at the moment it seems to be a case of wait six months and see what happens, maybe even x-ray again to see whether the bones have fused, although even if they have, the very, very best we can hope for is that we may be able to hand walk him up the road every now and then, and even that is probably being hopeful. To put it into perspective, I was told by my vet that he usually diagnoses osteo-arthritis of about the severity 2 or 3; Woolly’s is closer to 8 or 9. There’s literally no joint or cartilage left, so we’ve kind of accepted the fact that he’ll probably be a companion for the rest of his life. I’m going to try and get a better explanation from my vet, and try to get hold of the x-rays. I just know that at the moment, movement is a complete no-go area, and has to be kept to the minimum. I have asked specifically about hand walking and long-reining, and have been told no to both, so it seems I’ve got to find a way to make him lose weight whilst standing still, which I really didn’t think was possible – can I once again thank you all so much!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Just quickly, FatPiggy asked what height he is: he’s 13hh, Welsh Mountain Cross Connemara. I think his current weight is 351kgs, although I’m going to check that again tonight, and I think he’s meant to be 227kgs, although I’ll probably check that as well when I go out. He usually gets between 1 and a half to two sections of hay a night when he’s in, although we do feed “Alpaca” or herb hay, which is meant to have less calories then normal hay and fill them up a lot quicker. I don’t tend to give him any less then this as he tends to get manner-less and start pounding the door until our neighbours complain!!! Hehe!!! And also, he has to be bedded on shavings due to one of my other beasties having had a lung infection, although now that he’s out I could look at using straw for a little while….
Thank you all so much yet again, I’ll try and weight tape again tonight and see how he is, I know his crest is looking a little bit lumpy :O so I think I’m really going to have to take a hard look at his management again. Thank you all so very much, I really am so, so, so grateful for everything – god only knows what would happen if I didn’t have all your advice!!!!!!!! Thank you!!!!
- Sorry it’s so long again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
I'm sorry, his spavin does sound bad news. What a shame.

Here is a bit more blurbage about the correct amount to feed
web page and a useful guide to weight ranges web page

My 13.3 Arab x New Forest has an optimum weight of 344kg so your pony does sound quite over.

I would still give the nutritionalist a ring, they are so helpful and do all the calculations for you and don't try to sell you feed.

Readigrass is an absolute no no i'm afraid!
 
Given the size of the pony, and a estimated correct weight of 300kg he should be receiving between 1-1.5% of his body weight in food if he is to loose weight. Therefore he should eat between 3 - 4.5 kg of food, this should be a combination of laminitis approved chaff and hay.

Before anyone shoots me down in flames and says this is not enough to eat, this is what a specialist Newmarket vet prescribed for my laminitic mare. My 14hh NF went from 430kg to 350kg. It took 3 months for her to lose the weight.

You are not being 'cruel' when reducing a ponies intake to loose weight - its a necessity.
 
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