Breaking dilemma - over backwards - any suggestions?

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LouB

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I have a dilemma and really hope some of you knowledgable bods on the forum may be able to come up with a few suggestions.....

We have recently taken a 5yr Oldenburger mare in for breaking. She was bought by her owners as a 2yr from Caron Nicol, they started long reining at 3 but found her a bit of a handful and she stood up an went backover. They decided maybe she needed to be left a little longer so left her until 4 and tried again, I'm told she has done it few times whilst long reining. However, when they backed her and rode her quietly down the road a few times she was fine.

Now she is 5 and they have asked us to get her going. Their opinion is that she has been spoilt and is very attached to one of their other horses which is understandable. Anyway, we took her and hoped maybe she just needed some work and a yard routine where she isn't centre of attention.

My O/H lunged her in tack and she went back over twice with him, I didn't see it so not sure exactly what triggered it. I have lunged and long reined her without a problem. She was fine for a few days and we managed to get on hack her a couple of miles down the road, no problem. We also managed to ride her around the school, first walking and trotting following the lead horse and then standing and walking small circles independently leaving the babysitter to go off and do his flatwork bit. Great, we thought!

Next day we walk down into the school to do the same thing, O/H is aboard, I turn and shut the gate, and line my horse up to the fence to hop on. Mare tucks in behind him, then no questions asked she half rears. Now, O/H doesn't do anything, sits quietly, not touching her mouth, not making a fuss and then the bloody thing stands up a topples over.

We are stumped. We both have a reasonable amount of experience and O/H has worked in breaking yard for several years and has done some 'right quirkers'. We just can't work it out. I don't believe she is spoilt at all, I find her very obedient. More confusingly she does not appear frightened or sharp, in fact she is quite happy to 'be' with you and appears at groundlevel very sweet. When she does get up off the ground she doesn't dash off or appear at all worried.

I know you'll all be thinking back and teeth. I've got physio and dentist are coming this week. She has seen them both several times before as owners used to get physio after she went over as a youngster.

Sorry for the long rant but we're so stumped, just don't know what makes her tick. Any ideas other than obvious back and teeth??

Many thanks
 
Tack maybe, same bit that they rode her in? Or has become a habit from a certain point/action though obviously you haven't seen anything to trigger this.

Personally wouldn't touch a horse from that woman due to having bought a horse from her a couple of years ago that ended up being a huge nightmare! Was lovely on the ground, AWFUL when ridden.

Sorry if thats not much help but only things that can come to my head at the moment.
 
Golly what an extraordinary habit :confused:

If teeth and back don't show anything perhaps get her eyes checked? A loose cyst in the eye or a problem with the eyelid might be causing interrupted vision and that sort of irrational behaviour??

Best of luck and let us know how it turns out :)
 
Have tried several bits, she appears happy in all of them!

I know, can't see her being any good for anything, you'll never be able to trust her. Trouble is owner thinks she's the next best thing.

O/H is wondering if she might be wobbler. She hasn't always gone vertical, sometimes just goes half way and crumples.

If only they could talk!!
 
Goodness, no wonder you're stumped and rather concerned!

It could be a random health problem, like eyesight as previously suggested, but it would seem like rather an over reaction! Does she seem scared/panicked before or after? The only other thing I can think of is that it's a learned behaviour/habit. Maybe when being long-reined and backed the person doing it was very heavy handed or did something else wrong and she now does it preemptively (sp?).

I'm more worried about one of you being killed!
 
have the owners had any sort of work up done to see why? no horse should be happy to keep going over backwards.
 
To be honest, if the owner thinks it's marvellous then they can be the idiot to ride it.
Really I wouldn't risk your livelihood on one messed up horse, if they keep going over backwards there is something wrong mentally/physically. Kindest thing is a shotgun.
 
I've had one similar, was fine some days but others he went up and over. Very well bred b.warmblood by Ramiro Z. No warning at all, he went over and broke my friends leg in 5 places, shortly after this I'm afraid to say we had him PTS. Back, teeth, ect all fine. He was a "top heavy" horse though and seemed to tip easily. We though after the first time he did he would have learnt his lesson and not go up again, but just didn't seem bothered by it. Interestingly we also had his full year younger sister, she also didn't seem to have any self preservation and went up over on the long reins when breaking her. It was only when she went up and over and then managed to smash her head up on the indoor school doors (she went up in the doorway and came down half in and half out the school backwards) that she seemed to learn and never did it again (she ended up with quite a few stitches). Personally I wouldn't bother with anything that had done it more than once without good reason, the likely hood of you being able to stop it is slim, have you done much work on long reins? does she do it then? Can you pull her over yourself? How quickly does she go up?
 
Sorry, what do you mean by "had any work up"?

No, thats the strangest thing she doesn't appear worried, flustered or panicked, before, during or after!

Can't find what triggers it, she was fine when young foal was dashing up and down by the school fence next to her, you would expect something like that might be an excuse to set it off.

O/H won't let me get on her. We are trying blinkers next as a last resort, the theory being that if a horse goes up and backwards when it can't see where its going to fall/land it must have something wrong up top. However, she does seem to have any self-preservation. Not prepared to give her too many more chances, O/H broke his back a couple of yrs ago when a breaker went back over with him and I quite agree when he says they just ain't worth it.
 
PS, if you think she may be a wobbler, have you tried any of the tests, ie backing up, pulling tail as she walks etc. I personally would be insisting on idiot owner getting vet out asap for tests and also would not advise breeding from her.
 
Natalia - Ive not had any problems with her long reining, she marches out like she's really enjoying it and isn't at all nappy as you might expect.
I think after she had been up once or twice O/H pulled her over backwards on the lunge line in an attempt to try and frighten her. Really grasping at straws.

Interestingly, she is top heavy and a big girl at least 16.2, she should have been done at 2 before she got too big and strong.

I think the lack of self-preservation is the most scary thing.
 
Haven't tried any wobbler tests, good idea, will try tomorrow - to be honest we're just grasping at straws looking for a reason.

Will have to have frank chat with owner me thinks.

She appears quite sweet and generally amenable which what is so baffling.
 
ah sorry I meant full veterinary work up to see if any physical cause for the behaviour, either when it first started or more recently.
 
Ah i see, no I don't think so other than the chiropractor a few times after she had been over in the road.

Its odd she has done it right from the start before anything had chance to go awry, for 2yrs if you go back to when they started her.

Could be one of these things you just throw money at trying to find an answer, but I gues that will be up to the owner.
 
LouB, I don't have anything like your experience, but I would say my gut instinct would be to hand her back, even if you have to refund any money the owner has spent with you so far. I've known 2 confirmed rearers (who also went over backwards) in 40 years and neither gave any warning nor improved. One was a livery which arrived on our yard; a four year old, she'd been sold to our friend without mentioning her 'problem'. She broke my friend's back, but fortunately she wasn't paralysed.

Now, that was a while ago and the back/teeth/vet/tack thing is much more to the fore these days, which is good, BUT I don't think it's worth you or your OH risking yourselves for the sake of one horse.

As you say, the lack of self-preservation is worrying and it's what makes her dangerous. Please don't take any more risks.....
 
I don't think that self preservation can be "taught" as such, not unless she goes over on a really nasty hard surface, ie. not in the school. Then again your on a vicious circle of risking the horse really hurting itself and being broken anyway. Please don't risk yourself on her, if she is top heavy then she will find it easier to flip over than stay upright, our two who were in this habit were both big warmbloods with massive front ends, and weak behind. It's really not worth it, the chances are she has something nurological wrong anyway, no normal horse will flip itself as instinct means that a horse on the floor would be more at risk from attack. I'm all for pulling rearers over, and it normally works a treat but one that continues going down is really a silly project, no matter how smart or how much potential its meant to have. Plus its not your horse, so technically not your problem anyway.
 
well I suppose that leaves lots of possibilities at least..... so yup if they think she is the 'next best thing' they are probably going to have to throw some money at it or keep her as a field ornament/pts.

I think the test should perhaps have been would she do it with you.. she has...... hence she really does need some proper medical checks.
 
Thanks everyone, you all make a lot of sense. I guess no one likes to admit defeat. Would have handed her straight back if owner didn't have one very smart horse with us already.
Will have to talk to owner, its his money.

Thank you all, its much appreciated.
 
Quick question, when she is on the floor after going over what does she do? We had another horse with wobblers who when he had an attack appeared dead/paralised for a few seconds and would just lay on the floor. When moving the only way I can describe him was willing but slightly drunken sometimes, working him in to any sort of outline would bring on a problem, we only realised the problem when he was riding and still had a very baby like lack of cordination at 5 yrs, this sadly progressed quite quickly to full on collapse when the nerves were triggered at around 6yrs, he was PTS shortly after as was a danger to himself even in the field. Does she make any effort to get out of the way of the rider or person on the ground? Would also ask owner to xray for kissing spine, though would have thought she would be more "backy" and uncomfortable from the start. Personally I would be handing this horse back with a health warning and HVLB advise.
 
In my opinion its not worth the rick to you or your OH, if the horse has a history of it and is checked out is a viable reason to just say no to the owners and send it back.

I had a mare exactly the same as this one sounds, was broken at 3, reared over backwards so turned away to mature, did the same at 4 but i kept going with her and some days she would be an angel, absolutely foot perfect. Other days just even standing on the yard, for no reason she would rear and flip, when you lead her she would rear and flip, if you went to lunge she would just throw herself over and on the ground. She had NO preservation and would frequently throw herself onto wood, concrete and charge into and through gates. She even did it in the field. Some days she was perfect and sweet so i persisted, it wasnt until i was hospitalised after she fell on me and got back up and came down again for no reason that i gave up. She was put down at 5years old, she had no future. I wasnt going to breed from something like that. She had all the checks, scans, xrays etc and nothing was wrong. I got the physio out almost weekly as she must have been injuring herself throwing herself over every day but nothing helped. Get her checked over fully and just tell the owners what you think is right, but if im honest if shes anything like my mare was there is no way forwards.
 
natalia said:
I don't think that self preservation can be "taught" as such, not unless she goes over on a really nasty hard surface, ie. not in the school. Then again your on a vicious circle of risking the horse really hurting itself and being broken anyway. Please don't risk yourself on her, if she is top heavy then she will find it easier to flip over than stay upright, our two who were in this habit were both big warmbloods with massive front ends, and weak behind. It's really not worth it, the chances are she has something nurological wrong anyway, no normal horse will flip itself as instinct means that a horse on the floor would be more at risk from attack. I'm all for pulling rearers over, and it normally works a treat but one that continues going down is really a silly project, no matter how smart or how much potential its meant to have. Plus its not your horse, so technically not your problem anyway.
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agree with this

if im honest, i dont think its worth you continuing. IMO a horse like that shouldn't be ridden, you might get it going but i wouldn't put money on it ever forgetting its trick.
 
Natalia - ive only seen her go once and she got a bit wedged in the corner of the school (lucky O/H jumped off the right side) she got up reasonable quickly and just stood there (until O/H jumped up and gave her a rollicking!)

Ultimately, it will be owners decision but I will be using some of your suggestions in my arguement!

Many thanks
 
Yes, let us know how you get on. Not very often you come across ones like this, so is interesting, if nothing else. I've seen 2 similar to this. Both ended up on a one way journey. 1 was very talented and expensive, kept with a professional rider. It broke her arm in the end. Owner had every test done on it, including brain scans. Nothing ever showed up. Other one was a sweet, adorable little mare. Gorgeous looking and talented little thing but could never get to the bottom of the problem. She never had the good fortune to be properly investigated, so will never know if there was anything physically wrong with it but it ended up at Turners too.
 
I differentiate between "rearers" and "flippers". The former usually do it as a "thing", like another horse might buck or shake its head out of stress/excitement/impatience etc. or as the end of the spectrum of not going forward. The latter are, in my experience, a different kettle of fish. Some rearers do fall over but that doesn't seem to be their intention. Flippers almost seem to intend to end up on the ground and again, in my experience, they feel v different to ride.

One flipper I had had been electrocuted very badly. There was no doubt it had left him with some permanent neurological damage. (He did go on to compete successfully, although at nothing like the level he has potential for as a young horse, and was basically a sweet horse.)

Two were siblings. The mare's offspring were all mad - this wasn't the only insane thing they did!

Two had seizure disorders. One used to freeze then explode, the other used to sort of quiver then go up. I presume in that case it was similar to when you see horses die while they're upright - the large muscles of the hindquarters can contract and pull the horse over backwards.

One, I don't know her background but she also ran straight at fences and generally didn't seem to care once she was on a mission. The owner had her exorcised (yes, really) but that didn't seem to help.

One had significant damage to his neck from at least one, maybe two incidents in his past. He was a lovely, sweet horse in general but was at the end of his rope. As an experiment the vet "blocked" his neck and even under sedation it was extraordinary to see the change in his posture and expression. We were able to get him ridable but the owners did not want to do the management he needed and I heard later he hurt someone who was unaware of his history. :(

One just seemed a bit touched. She flipped over in an inhand class before she was backed and showed the tendency many other times. It seemed to be a sort of panic reaction, although it happened quickly not after she's worked herself into a state. I did get her riding reasonably well, even to the point of jumping, before I left the yard she was at, but she subsequently nearly killed and permanently disabled a girl who was riding her when it started to thunderstorm. I really think she was an accident waiting to happen. She later went through a sport horse sale - a friend saw her and went out of her way to warn a bidder of the mare's history.

I think you have to investigate a physical cause. It's possible that if there was an originating incident (rather than something organic) it happened before the current owners had her, although it's also possible damage was done the first time she turned over. If a physical cause can't be found then I think you have to have a very serious think about how to proceed. It's very hard to cure something you can't diagnose and the risks in this case would seem to be huge.
 
This is not a one off and not worth risking your life over.

I had a mare whose solution to anything she did not want to do was to rear. She reared in her stable, in hand in a headcoller going to/from the field if spooked and of course under saddle. She was very good at rearing and could stand keeping her balance for quite a long time. She never came over. She was highly placed national championships, final of pot international dressage horse etc but we sold her as she was dangerous and to be honest just didn't enjoy dressage. It was just her solution - as others have said like bucking. This sounds like a totally different kettle of fish to actually flip herself over. It may be physical but you may never get to the bottom of it and in the meantime she could kill you or paralyse you. Not worth it for one horse.
 
I knew a horse that would rear and often flip herself, the worst bit was that you never knew when it was going to happen. She was a beautiful mare by Abraham and a lot of the time she went very nicely, worked in a lovely outline and had a great jump on her. But sometimes something just seemed to change in her brain and she went from a fantastic eventer type to a loon. Once she was trotting in the school and for no apparent reason flipped over in the corner. Another time she was out at a show and launched herself into one of the jumping wings- flipping herself over onto the wings. The owner put her out on loan and the mare ended up breaking someone's arm. In the end the owner kept her as a breeding mare, not a wise decision imo but as yet she hasn't managed to get in foal (luckily!). Don't risk yourselves, in my experience of horses like this it's something that will never go away.
 
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