Breaking in and ground manners

[Kelly11]

Hi
I’m looking for a professional horse breaker to break my 4 year old boy , pref a woman ,he also needs some ground manners as he’s constantly biting me in the morning and has no patience, I’m looking for a professional that can train me and my horse together rather than someone taking him or coming to me to just break him on there own , I’ve only had him 3 months so I’m still building a bond and the respect between us , I’m in the Epping Area , Essex , can anyone recommend someone please thanks kelly x

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

You might be best advised to post on the Regional boards on here, for your area.

I'm going to be candid here: I don't know what experience you've had with youngsters, but at the end of the day it will be YOU who has to teach him the ground manners! Any professional will point this out to you!

If your youngster is "constantly biting" you, then you have to stop and think why this is! You say it is "in the morning", so is this when you feed him?? In which case take away the reason for the biting, i.e. the feeding. He probably doesn't need the feed anyway!

You need to be aware that with a youngster, you are training your mount of the future! And rude on the ground will mean rude when you're in the saddle!

It sounds to me like this youngster needs some firm guidelines and a sharp reminder of who is the Herd Leader here! YOU are the one who has to do that, and the time is NOW, not when you've got your professional!! Because if you don't instil good manners in this horse right now, you will simply be not only wasting money on a professional but you will potentially be ruining a good horse; AND not only that, you may end up with a horse that is dangerous and which hurts you. Seriously. Those of us who've been around horses for a bit - and have been around the markets - have sadly seen a lot of young horses which have not had the start they should have, and have ended up unmanageable. They then go to market with no reserve, and end up getting knocked down to the meat-man, and it is Sooooh avoidable!

Sorry if I'm seeming harsh, but I think you need to seriously think about your management of this youngster; and also (am trying to be kind here) I think you should also question your own experience of dealing with youngsters and your ability to deal with this horse for the next few years, which is when he will be asking questions and seeing what you will let him get away with!

A professional, if they know their job, should be honest and up-front with you - and should counsel you to perhaps think about what you've taken on and whether this is an appropriate challenge for you at your current level of ability.

I am aware that I have been harsh. I don't know your ability, or situation, but I really feel that you just might have taken on more than you realise.

If you ARE committed to carrying on, then yes it is an excellent idea to get a professional to work with you both together on an ongoing basis and support and mentor you. This is what I did when I got my youngster, I worked with a professional who has supported me at every stage of our journey - and resultant issues (and there are always "issues" with a youngster!!).

Meantime, if you can, I'd turn your youngster away for now. Ideally - if you can find it - he would benefit from being turned out in a big herd with plenty of dominant mares! They will nip him into shape and he will quickly learn to mind his manners!

 

[Kelly11]

You might be best advised to post on the Regional boards on here, for your area.

I'm going to be candid here: I don't know what experience you've had with youngsters, but at the end of the day it will be YOU who has to teach him the ground manners! Any professional will point this out to you!

If your youngster is "constantly biting" you, then you have to stop and think why this is! You say it is "in the morning", so is this when you feed him?? In which case take away the reason for the biting, i.e. the feeding. He probably doesn't need the feed anyway!

You need to be aware that with a youngster, you are training your mount of the future! And rude on the ground will mean rude when you're in the saddle!

It sounds to me like this youngster needs some firm guidelines and a sharp reminder of who is the Herd Leader here! YOU are the one who has to do that, and the time is NOW, not when you've got your professional!! Because if you don't instil good manners in this horse right now, you will simply be not only wasting money on a professional but you will potentially be ruining a good horse; AND not only that, you may end up with a horse that is dangerous and which hurts you. Seriously. Those of us who've been around horses for a bit - and have been around the markets - have sadly seen a lot of young horses which have not had the start they should have, and have ended up unmanageable. They then go to market with no reserve, and end up getting knocked down to the meat-man, and it is Sooooh avoidable!

Sorry if I'm seeming harsh, but I think you need to seriously think about your management of this youngster; and also (am trying to be kind here) I think you should also question your own experience of dealing with youngsters and your ability to deal with this horse for the next few years, which is when he will be asking questions and seeing what you will let him get away with!

A professional, if they know their job, should be honest and up-front with you - and should counsel you to perhaps think about what you've taken on and whether this is an appropriate challenge for you at your current level of ability.

I am aware that I have been harsh. I don't know your ability, or situation, but I really feel that you just might have taken on more than you realise.

If you ARE committed to carrying on, then yes it is an excellent idea to get a professional to work with you both together on an ongoing basis and support and mentor you. This is what I did when I got my youngster, I worked with a professional who has supported me at every stage of our journey - and resultant issues (and there are always "issues" with a youngster!!).

Meantime, if you can, I'd turn your youngster away for now. Ideally - if you can find it - he would benefit from being turned out in a big herd with plenty of dominant mares! They will nip him into shape and he will quickly learn to mind his manners!

Hi

I appreciate the feedback but as you said you don’t know me at all or my situation , this horse has come a long way from when I got him as he was out of control , I’ve taught him everything he knows and has come on so much from when I got him , he’s out all day in a field of herds and the other horses do teach him as I’ve seen it with my own eyes , he bites in the morning because he wants to go out and is so impatient that when i put his rug on to go out he tries to pull it off and he thinks it’s a game , I work him everyday on his manners and for most of it he listens it’s now the biting in the morning I need to deal with , after he comes in from the field he’s a diff horse , he knows not to push me as he gets firmly told what’s except-able and what’s not , he needs breaking in and working as that’s what he likes to do , turning him out won’t achieve respect for me in the long run , he needs to work and he needs to bond with me , he can’t do that in a field turned out , he could always be like this who knows , the professional was for breaking him in to saddle , as he’s been broken to drive , the professional will work along side me and him to work with us and guide us in the right direction when I need help or to ask questions, he’s fine driving he has manners , and I’m sure he will also be fine under Saddle he has a long way to go but he’s come a long way in a short time he’s done very well now he needs to go on to the next phase which will also help him

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

Well Good Luck OP! Hope you find a professional to work with you and that all goes well!

 

[AdorableAlice]

' he also needs some ground manners as he’s constantly biting me in the morning and has no patience. ' so I’m still building a bond and the respect between us '

He needs to bond with a person carrying a blue pipe, and you need to realise just how dangerous he will soon become.

I am sure a professional breaker will walk you through how they will right the wrong the horse has been allowed to learn and develop, before commencing the backing and riding away process. If you are willing to travel I can recommend an excellent and compassionate maker of tricky spoilt horses. (West Midlands)

 

[paddy555]

' he also needs some ground manners as he’s constantly biting me in the morning and has no patience. ' so I’m still building a bond and the respect between us '

He needs to bond with a person carrying a blue pipe, and you need to realise just how dangerous he will soon become.

he doesn't need to bond with you he needs to learn respect for you. Alkathene pipe, stick or whatever. Set him up where you know this is going to happen then pipe straight across his chest and get him moving back very quickly. Your space, his space and he respects your space.
Think what would happen if he bit his mother.. She would be straight at him and he would be flying backwards and he would learn respect for her. The other horses in the field do teach him but they only teach him to behave with them not with humans.

young horses are not bonding they are challenging people to establish their role in the horse/human herd.

 

[Pink Gorilla]

Some very old school methods are being recommended here. I don’t condone hitting horses at all! You gain respect through trust and leadership, not fear. I have a similar issue with my new 4 year old and have signed up to an online course by a natural horsemanship guy local to us. I am currently working through his online groundwork sessions and sending him videos for voice over feedback. Just in the week I’ve had this horse, he has improved lots. I will however get the horsemanship guy out a couple of times to refine our skills before starting in the breaking in process, as he’s just not ready yet. I thought he would be ready to break in when I bought him, but I’m having to teach him things he should have learned a long time ago; such as tying up and leading with respect for my personal space etc. He’s physically ready to be broken in, but he’s mentally like a 2 year old.

 

[Kelly11]

Some very old school methods are being recommended here. I don’t condone hitting horses at all! You gain respect through trust and leadership, not fear. I have a similar issue with my new 4 year old and have signed up to an online course by a natural horsemanship guy local to us. I am currently working through his online groundwork sessions and sending him videos for voice over feedback. Just in the week I’ve had this horse, he has improved lots. I will however get the horsemanship guy out a couple of times to refine our skills before starting in the breaking in process, as he’s just not ready yet. I thought he would be ready to break in when I bought him, but I’m having to teach him things he should have learned a long time ago; such as tying up and leading with respect for my personal space etc. He’s physically ready to be broken in, but he’s mentally like a 2 year old.

Hi

Your horse sounds the exact same as mine , he’s so impatient being tied up he throws his head around like a maniac , he bites me when trying to put his fly rugs on and fly mask also tries to bite his head collar when I’m putting it on , he used to drag my down to the field but with lots of ground work he’s finally gave up and respect me enough to walk down nicely , he only does all these things in the morning when he’s going out , when he comes back in he’s a lovely boy , I’ve got a natural horseman ship trainer coming in today she seems a lovely woman to help me train him more and break him in if we think he’s ready or when he’s ready to be broken , they sound very much alike It’s been an exhausting 3 months since I’ve had him but I’m slowly seeing progress , we just have to had in there and fingers crossed they will eventually respect us enough to behave ha

 

[paddy555]

Some very old school methods are being recommended here. I don’t condone hitting horses at all! You gain respect through trust and leadership, not fear. I have a similar issue with my new 4 year old and have signed up to an online course by a natural horsemanship guy local to us. I am currently working through his online groundwork sessions and sending him videos for voice over feedback. Just in the week I’ve had this horse, he has improved lots. I will however get the horsemanship guy out a couple of times to refine our skills before starting in the breaking in process, as he’s just not ready yet. I thought he would be ready to break in when I bought him, but I’m having to teach him things he should have learned a long time ago; such as tying up and leading with respect for my personal space etc. He’s physically ready to be broken in, but he’s mentally like a 2 year old.

your post and Kelly's are very similar. I am not suggesting "hitting" horses.
However young horses that walk over people or into their space are dangerous as are ones throwing their heads around and biting. I suspect you will find that the "blue pipe" methods come from some of us who are older and who have learnt from experience. In the wild a young horse would learn quickly because the discipline metered out to him would be short and sharp. I wonder if youngsters get into this position because of what I would describe as "piddling around" methods of natural horsemanship and bonding etc. Things have to be black and white to young horses otherwise someone is at risk of getting seriously hurt. I can also see little point in spending weeks trying to do something that can be achieved in a very short time and then the horse can move on.
There seem to be lots of similar posts and comments to your's and Kelly's from people struggling with youngsters and this seems to becoming more common. Possibly things are not being made clear to young horses.

 

[TPO]

Blue pipe = bad
Horsemanship flag/carrot stick = good
Lunge whip = acceptable

"Natural" horsemanship gets such a bad rep because its perceived as wishy washy. Done properly it's not at all; it is very definite.

There is only good horsemanship or bad horsemanship, it doesnt need gimmicky labels.

Using the "blue pipe" doesn't mean beating the horse at all. It should be used as an extension of the arm and to move the horse. A genuine feral/unhandled understand pressure and will move when anything comes into their "bubble". One the whole these posts are spoiled horses who havent been taught pressure and release and are rude with it.

I don't understand this influx of "unhandled and/or feral youngsters" posts. Is there something in the water?

Why do people buy youngsters and/or "unhandled" horses without the slightest clue about handling or training? If I hear about a "bond" one more time ?

Why don't people understand how dangerous it is to have such bad mannered horses? Teaching a youngster to tie up, lead, not bite and be rugged calmly shouldn't be a 3mth job. Questions and training should be BEFORE purchasing any animal.

People are going to end up seriously hurt and horses without training and manners end up in slippery slopes (preloved is full of them cheap as "projects"). Why does that never register?

 

[Roasted Chestnuts]

I have a two year old welsh d and he would never dream of doing what you are describing, reason being from the get go he was taught about my space and my expectations in my space. If he is impatient he gets made to wait. If he loses his temper and starts playing up he’s told off. If he bit me he would get a smack and chased out of my space. Pretty simple stuff.

For all those who don’t believe that violence and giving a horse a smack is a good Method actually observe horses in a field, do they namby Pamby about? No hooves and teeth and getting used. That’s is their language, push the boundaries too far and get chased/kicked/bit. My boy follows me everywhere, he sees me and comes to call and he’s had some serious tellings off.

Sounds to me OP like you want someone to fix your horses biting so you don’t need to feel like the bad guy. All that will do is make the horses respect the trainer and keep biting you. Your horse hasn’t bonded nor does he respect you, you are below him in the pecking order and that is just dangerous.

 

[Ownedby4horses]

OP if you are looking for more of a horseman approach then I highly recommend you contact David Gray (David Gray horsemanship - just google), he’s a western trainer (and international reigning champion), he will help you (he’s not expensive), he’s based in Harlow, so in the same county. He is a western trainer but works extensively with English riders too. He’s been my trainer and friend for many years. He is one of the few people I would trust implicitly with my horses.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

IMO, a piece of blue (or any other colour) pipe is better than a stick as it makes a brilliant noise as you move it through the air. It gets the horse's attention quickly, no need to make contact with the horse in most circumstances but the horse needs to think that it might if he doesn't move. The whole point is that the handler needs to be aware of the horse's body language and pre-empt any unwanted behaviours, such as biting. Why on earth do people put up with such things?

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

I agree with "TPO"'s comments above, wholeheartedly.

Which is why I suggested this truculent youngster would benefit from being turned out with some dominant mares to teach him his manners!

If anyone thinks that a "touchy feely" approach is what horses do with each other; then just go out onto a place where there are "wild" horses like Exmoor or Dartmoor, or a grazing project if one is nearby, and see how horses actually behave!

My old boy was a really rude and bullying sort of horse when I got him with no respect for me whatever! When we turned him out with our old gal for the first time she was a real cow to him! She kicked him in the guts - hard! - and then did this magnificent backwards-canter into him! Within the day he was polite, mannerly, and handle-able. Job done, job sorted. It saved me many hours of groundwork and kept me safe into the bargain!

It isn't the whip or "hitting-tool" that can commit the "abuse", it is the hand that wields it..........

 

[paddy555]

"Natural" horsemanship gets such a bad rep because its perceived as wishy washy. Done properly it's not at all; it is very definite.

There is only good horsemanship or bad horsemanship, it doesnt need gimmicky labels.

Using the "blue pipe" doesn't mean beating the horse at all. It should be used as an extension of the arm and to move the horse. A genuine feral/unhandled understand pressure and will move when anything comes into their "bubble". One the whole these posts are spoiled horses who havent been taught pressure and release and are rude with it.

I don't understand this influx of "unhandled and/or feral youngsters" posts. Is there something in the water?

Why do people buy youngsters and/or "unhandled" horses without the slightest clue about handling or training? If I hear about a "bond" one more time ?

Why don't people understand how dangerous it is to have such bad mannered horses? Teaching a youngster to tie up, lead, not bite and be rugged calmly shouldn't be a 3mth job. Questions and training should be BEFORE purchasing any animal.

People are going to end up seriously hurt and horses without training and manners end up in slippery slopes (preloved is full of them cheap as "projects"). Why does that never register?

about the influx of poorly behaved yougsters, can the same thing be related to kids and dogs. When I was a child and we went into a cafe I sat at the table, was quiet and behaved, my parents would allow nothing else. That doesn't seem to happen as much nowadays.
We had a dog. She was walked on a lead, she wasn't allowed to run up to people and their dogs did not run up to me. Nowadays that doesn't seem to happen as much. It seems to be acceptable that dogs should run around out of control and it is regarded as normal.

The attitude to young horses doesn't appear to be much different. They are not our friends. In their view they are part of our herd and, for their own happiness, need to know their place. Happiness to a horse is knowing it's place, what it is allowed to do and the safety of that. The safety that someone is in charge.

The horse described above (in italics below) is not a happy, contented horse. He is a horse who just doesn't understand, is challenging and that is worrying to him. He is not quite the herd leader a position he is challenging for but cannot ever have but he is equally not the follower. He doesn't really know where he stands.

"he’s so impatient being tied up he throws his head around like a maniac , he bites me when trying to put his fly rugs on and fly mask also tries to bite his head collar when I’m putting it on"


I guess for NH trainers then it is how their work looks ie non aggressive. The blue pipe version of a horse pushing us over looks aggressive, use the pipe, push the horse back out of our space and probably some well chosen words to reinforce the message.
The NH trainer looks very kind.
People think the NH trainer is piddling around being nice. Novices don't realise they have had the same struggles but are excellent readers of horses (the good ones) and have excellent timing so it all looks very kind and gentle.

Then the novice tries the being nice part but don't have the timing and experience to read the horse. They also don't realise the "blue pipe" brigade rarely have to use the pipe as they also have the timing and experience to read the horse. The "blue pipes" are usually there to deal with the horses who have been allowed to develop poor manners.

 

[Errin Paddywack]

Funnily enough it was a piece of pipe that sorted our farm collie out but not by hitting her. It was just about impossible to get her attention once she was fixed on sheep. One day in the yard my husband picked up a bit of pipe and started blowing down it. She was horrified by the strange noises and for some reason changed her attitude completely from then on.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Paddy 555, I agree with every word!



We used to have a mare who was difficult to load into a trailer. A farmer/hunting friend transported our 4 horses from one yard to another for us. He brought his blue pipe. We thought carefully about which order to put them on the lorry in (big polo 7 horse wagon) and she went on 3rd. Farmer friend followed her up the yard and onto the lorry very quietly, walking at her pace with his piece of blue pipe gently swinging behind her. She loaded like a dream, with the herd leader waiting to follow her on. He did not touch her, or threaten to do so with the blue pipe but it and he was very effective. You couldn't have got anything more natural!

 

[Upthecreek]

Nobody is advocating that you beat the horse until it’s cowering in the corner. It’s not about violence. It’s about correcting unwanted behaviour at the right time in a way that the horse understands. So OP, what do you currently do when he bites you? What do you do when he’s tied up and gets impatient? These are issues you need to resolve because you will be handling him on a daily basis and getting someone to break him in won’t change the lack of respect he shows you on the ground. You need professional help with this before you do anything else. Why should he accept your instructions when you are riding him if he doesn’t when you are handling him?

As others have said it is worrying the number of people buying young horses currently without the skills/knowledge/experience to educate them. So sad that these can often mature to be dangerous animals who are repeatedly sold on as ‘projects’. Much kinder for the horse to receive a short sharp correction for unwanted behaviour as a youngster, which he will quickly learn from than be dangerous to handle and ride for it’s lifetime.

 

[bubsqueaks]

I cannot recommend Connor Willcocks highly enough - he is based in Chelmsford, Essex.
He is currently restarting ours.
Such a natural & talented horseman

 

[AdorableAlice]

Hi

Your horse sounds the exact same as mine , he’s so impatient being tied up he throws his head around like a maniac , he bites me when trying to put his fly rugs on and fly mask also tries to bite his head collar when I’m putting it on , he used to drag my down to the field but with lots of ground work he’s finally gave up and respect me enough to walk down nicely , he only does all these things in the morning when he’s going out , when he comes back in he’s a lovely boy , I’ve got a natural horseman ship trainer coming in today she seems a lovely woman to help me train him more and break him in if we think he’s ready or when he’s ready to be broken , they sound very much alike It’s been an exhausting 3 months since I’ve had him but I’m slowly seeing progress , we just have to had in there and fingers crossed they will eventually respect us enough to behave ha

Keeping your fingers crossed and hoping the horse will eventually respect you enough to behave. ? ? Your young horse has trained you to accept his appalling, rude and dangerous behaviour. He will not eventually respect you or the ground you stand on, unless you deal with him without any further delay or finger crossing.

So called old school methods remain and will always remain the only way to educate a young horse. It is not rocket science to halter break a young horse correctly if you know what you are doing. If you consider your comments, 'he is impatient being tied up' that is because you didn't teach him to tie up properly. 'he bites me', no, you have allowed him to bite you and now he thinks that is acceptable behaviour. 'He drags me' you didn't halter break him correctly and teach stop/go. Every experienced horseman will tell you that if you make a fool out of a young horse by not having firm boundaries, the horse will soon make a fool out of his handler.

The early years are so crucial and lay the foundation for the years to come and thereby giving the horse the very best chance of having decent homes throughout his life. No youngster will be perfectly well behaved all the time, a windy morning has produced more than one fly a kite moment when my horses were young and on the way to turn out. I kept myself safe by carrying a pipe and used a long line.

 

[FestiveFuzz]

Completely agree AA! As I said on the other thread, I bought my first foal in 2018 after riding and owning since childhood and was acutely aware of how big a responsibility owning him is, as the foundations are so incredibly important.

I and everyone else who handles him have always been incredibly firm on boundaries. That doesn’t mean he’s been beaten or taught with fear, nor does it mean we don’t enjoy the odd cuddle whilst he’s snoozing, we’ve just been consistently strict on where the boundaries are which means I now have a mannerly 2yo who is a pleasure to be around. Of course there’s still the odd moment when he tries his luck as he’s still learning his place in the world, but in my opinion a short sharp reminder of boundaries is so much more beneficial than a softly softly approach with fingers crossed for the best.