breaks on my 3yo

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isabella

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well ive broken in my rising 4 welsh cob and hes been an angle through the whole process the only problem we are now having is that hes so egar to go forward he doesn't want to stop, which is proving to be a problem out hacking as he wont wait.

Hes in an eggbut snaffle with a flash to stop him opening his mouth which he was doing before, making him quite difficult. Everything else with him is fine back teeth ect. so just wondering if there are any exercises i can do or any changes i can make to his tack? I just dont want to put anything too harsh in his mouth when hes so young but hes just so determined that hes going to go forward.

thanks in advance
 
i wouldn't change his bit at that age. I'd practice rein back with him in the school and every time he takes a step forward when you don't him to, ask him to back up two etc etc. It takes a wee while but it does have a lasting effect.
 
I didn't know whether a different snaffle might be better? or maybe a grakle instead of the flash?

Thanks for the suggestion i will definatley have a go at tht.
 
If he's opening his mouth maybe the bit is uncomfortable (just re-read your post lol) What about trying a french link or a lozenge bit? Or a straight bar? I rode my 4yo (now 5) in a straight bar sprenger duo and he was really settled in his mouth with it. It worked well with fussy mouthed TB too. Might be worth a try?
 
I'd probably go back to doing some ground work if your breaks are a bit dodgy, you don't want him to spook, bolt and then not be able to stop going down a road or something. Oh and by ground work I dont mean any of that carrot stick nonsense! I found long reining worked a treat with my 3 yr old (chestnut in sig). We had near perfect steering and breaks before I even got on him. Good luck!
 
Take the flash off and try another mouthpiece...if he's opening his mouth he's doing it for a reason. I have my 3 yr old in a french link fulmer. It's a thinner mouthpiece than he had when i initially started backing him, and he's much happier and settled in it now. All you're doing by sticking a flash on him is creating tension, especially if he's unhappy with his current bit.
 
Lack of brakes in a newly backed horse indicates a failure in the backing process IMHO. Did you teach him voice aids for walk, trot, canter and WHOA before starting riding him?? we never get on a youngster until they're word perfect - after all, how do you teach them that legs mean go and reins mean whoa if you don't have a voice aid to use in conjunction with leg and rein aids. when we FIRST sit on them it's usually on the lunge with no reins and we use voice plus a pull on the neck strap for downward transitions. When we take the reins we still use voice and neck strap, and just the teensiest touch of rein.

If you're starting off by strapping his mouth closed and changing bits is creating more problems - go back to the beginning and get those voice aids spot on!!
 
JanetGeorge talks sense as usual
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I agree with what she said ^^
 
long reining is fantastic for teaching them manners from the ground without the vunerability of being on top. Take him out hacking this way - quiet tracks and fields are obviously best! Stand slightly to one side of them so if the don't stop, or get too fast, you can turn them in a circle rather than being 'water skiied' away with. Start in an enclosed space to start with if you can, as soon as they stop from gentle rein pressure, release the pressure slightly and plenty of vocal praise - they do learn pretty quicky!
 
Agree with JG and Sleeping Dragon.
The horse is telling you that his mouth is uncomfortable and you are ignoring him, in fact, worse than that you are making him more uncomfortable by ensuring that he can't relieve the pressure at all by opening his mouth. Single jointed bits can poke the soft palate and almost invariably do so when the mouth is stapped shut, When you are ready to try again, after following JG's advice, try either a double jointed bit e.g. a french link or a mullen mouth piece, which he will probably find much more comfortable. You could ask your EDT for advice about which bit would suit the shape of his mouth best.
 
Would you really teach a recently backed 3 year old to rein back??? I wouldn't.

It would come waay down on my list of things to teach, he is more likely to learn to stand up.

I would go back to basics as other people have suggested and re learn whoah and stand on the voice, I would not put him in a position where he has to stand for long periods (which I'm sure you're not), it's a bit unfair when he's just being jolly and enthusiastic. i would want him to whoah and stand for a bit when you ask though for safety reasons.
I would dispense with the flash as he is likely teething and you want him to be able to tell you when his mouth is sore. Finally I would he happy that he's so forward and has taken to backing so well and would chuck him in a field till Spring.
 
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Would you really teach a recently backed 3 year old to rein back??? I wouldn't.

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Yep. Loads of people teach it really early on to stop horses using it as an evasion.

However, as I said above, I would also look into changing the bit fora french link or a mullen type mouthpiece. I also agree with the long reining
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How do you get a 3 year old to rein back? With an older horse I would use leg & hand & seat. With a 3 year old I would expect that to blow it's brain.

What sort of people use rein back to stop a baby from going forward. Is it some top dressage yard technique I am blissfully unaware of... genuinely confused here.
 
Maybe I didn't make myself very clear. Not rein back to stop a horse going forward, but to teach to stand still! OP seemed concerned that horse wouldn't stand when hacking - I assumed that this meant at junctions and so I thought that sounded quite dangerous! I don't *do* dressage so no I don't do any sort of classical reinback, but was taught to do this by my instructor when I ran into similar problems with newly backed, just turned 4yo. Not hand and leg - I was told to keep a consistent (light obv.) contact on the rein and bring my shoulders up and back. Worked perfectly. But then I did it in conjuction with voice aids to 'back up' which he was very familiar with.
 
Well I would have to agree to disagree on this then. The absolute sacrosanct thing with young horses is to be going forwards. Getting a baby to back up with the hand because they won't stand sounds like a recipe for disaster. Getting yougnsters to stand still for periods full stop is something I would avoid, they can get really stressed about it and I avoid anything but turn on the forehand till they are more established.
 
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My 3 year old reins back very very well
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Has never once blown her brains
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As for the OP .... I would definitely go right back to the start
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Good luck
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Thankies!
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I shall just have to be in a lonely group of one then..
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I am confused to what group you want to be in ??
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Don't get me wrong .... My 3 year knows how to go forward, she trots with the click of my voice and a squeeze of the leg, She canters off when I sit and she comes down into a down transition when I "whoa" at her
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.

She also reins back when I say "back back " .

So perhaps your not in that lonely little group
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?
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I shall just have to be in a lonely group of one then..
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Ah, don't be lonely! Here - have a drink
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Horses for courses I guess, but like CMT my youngster was quite happy to learn backwards as well as forwards, maybe I've just been lucky.
 
I'm no expert but don't like the idea of fastening a youngsters mouth shut as I fail to see what it achieves
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Would try a different bit - perhaps a happy mouth in case its the metal bit the horse is objecting to?

I don't understand why anyone would be against teaching a youngster to back up
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For me the reason for it is 2 fold as it comes in darn handy if you have to do gates no matter how old they are and it reduces the chances of using going back as a diversion.

Bella is 13 months old and is just beginning to get the hang of going back at gates in order to open them. Is that wrong to have taught her this ? She is praised lots and loudly when she even takes as much as a single step by the way
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I come from more of a western/NH background and personally wouldn't dream of taking a young horse out unless it knew how to go forward, backwards, sideways (yield front and back end) and stand still. I have come across this idea of not teaching young horses to go backwards before and to me it's madness. If you give the young horse a properly balanced education then backing up is not going to have any more detrimental effect on them than any other yield. Let's face it, if you applied the same principle, teaching them to always go forward might mean that they would become difficult to stop. Hmmm...
Strangely enough, the trainers I work with never strap a horse's mouth shut. If a horse is opening it's mouth or evading the bit they consider there is a reason for it and work on that.
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My 3yr old was a pro at going backwards under saddle from voice aid - along with sideways (move over) because that's what she'd been taught to do when I wanted her to move around me in the stable.

Not a bad thing as it turns out, (she's now 4yrs old) as is a pro at opening and shutting gates out on hacks because she can move over and go backwards!

Really though, brakes at this age are all down to work done on the ground as JanetGeorge said, so I'd take a few steps back and re-establish the voice aids with lungeing and long reining.
 
Just another thought.

Has he been checked to see if he has wolf teeth. I know with my rising 4 it was picked up on the vetting and after he had them taken out his breaks were ten times better!!
 
I think the difference is that she isn't being asked to rein back correctly. Getting her to back up with voice is not going to blow her brains if you have drilled her into going back from the ground.

Would you really ask a recently backed 3 year old to stand still by using the reins to get it to go backwards.... That's something different.
Sienna would walk backwards for England from day one when I was on the ground and telling her to back up. She didn't learn to rein back till she was about 6.
 
I think it does make them too forwards sometimes. I tend to produce strongish & rather forward horses. But they are bold & honest & I've never broken or produced a napper.

All of mine go backwards from the voice when I'm on the ground and would probably with a bit of assistance & reperition when on board. I can't see the point of teaching them something wrong though & when I want to teach rein back then it'll be done correctly, with virtually no hand & just leg & seat aids which I couldn't expect a just backed horse to understand.
My concern about the OP is if the horse is being told to back up as a reprimand or discipline. I simply would never do that with a just backed horse. If it were fidgety or wouldn't stand (and this is something I've dealt with lots when showing young horses) then the horse is walked quietly in a circle back to where it started. This is repeated until horse gets the point. If it takes months to learn then it simply isn't a problem.
 
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I didn't know whether a different snaffle might be better? or maybe a grakle instead of the flash?

Thanks for the suggestion i will definatley have a go at tht.

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I would try a french link type of bit, or one with a peanut, like the KK or the Neue Schule, I love that type of bit on a young horse. I most certainly would not use a grackle instead of a flash, it has a much harsher action.

I am in two minds on the reinback debate, I think it totally depends on the horse, I would not teach it unless the horse was truly forward and if it was a nappy type certainly not until it had learned to go forward. I tend to teach back inhand, from an early age, and, when teaching it in the saddle, have someone at the front giving the normal inhand aid whilst the rider applies the 'new' ridden aid, this causes less stress and confusion to the horse.

I agree with Janet, my horses have total understanding of the voice aids before I get on, and, after getting them forward, I make a point of teaching them the halt aid from the saddle, walk halt walk excercises are good here, but do vary the walk strides as they can soon learn to 'count'! It is also important that the walk is truly forward, shuffle halt shuffle does not cut it! You can later used trot walk trot and I also used this exercise in canter trot canter (and later canter walk canter) on a horse who had dodgy brakes, conversely I have also used it on a less than forward horse - it works for them too and really puts them 'on the aids'.

Good luck
 
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