Breeders' Dilemma?

[Rollin]

Sell or run on and keep?

We planned to sell three fillies this year but have decided to keep them and have them trained on. Sent one to a professional SJ trainer this week and have very good reports. We think another will make a good eventer.

What do you plan to do next year? Do breeders feel the market is still over supplied. It is a particular problem for breeders of rare horses as we are being encouraged to breed more not less.

 

[Spring Feather]

I think you have to know your market, watch your market and be prepared to alter your plans if that market changes. I much prefer to sell my youngsters as foals. The profit margin is far greater at this stage; for a few years anyway. WB foals sell for between $5k and $18k (generally) over here in North America, depending on bloodlines and potential. If we don't sell as foals then the next time we have an opening for a jump in price/profit is at about 4 or 5 years old, once the youngster is out and about doing some small shows in the chosen discipline. Then the prices range from around $25k - $50k (again, generally). At 6 to 7 years old again the sales price moves up comparatively with the showing success of the youngster.

I don't know about the rare horse market specifically or in an in-depth way. I am friends with a couple of breeders of Shagyas and a couple of breeders of Akhal Tekes and I see the prices they advertise their youngsters at, which is significantly greater than the WB youngster prices ... however I don't see many actually selling.

The market for horses over here has overall been a little depressed and slow going for the past couple of years but this year it seems that there is a growing number of people starting to dig into their wallets. I've sold every youngster I have this year, except for 2 which I held back. One is a broodmare prospect who is being retained as a future competition horse and then broodmare. The other is a 3 year old who was a bit of an odd-bod youngster but is now coming into himself and has grown to a good height (but I had previously had some concerns that he may not which is why I couldn't pro-actively advertise him). I'll back him over the winter and hopefully get him out to some 4 year old shows next year. Depending on how he does I'll advertise him as a 4 year old or 5 year old.

So, I guess the answer lies with you. Is breeding a business for you where you need to make profit in order to continue producing youngstock, or is it a hobby where you *hope* to make some profit, or at least cover your costs?

 

[Rollin]

No Spring Feather, in answer to your last question. We make no money and don't care. We are retired hobby breeders with a passion.

I don't ride much and I don't compete so it is always a matter of employing others.

I think selling rare breeds can be a challenge, if they are rare what do they do. I refused to sell the filly who will jump because I knew she would finish up as an endurance horse. Very few pure CB's compete, other than in the show ring another good reason for DIY.

However, if I keep too many I can breed fewer.

Thank your including some stats on sale prices. I do know that one CB breeder in NA sells foals before they are born, wish we had the same enthusiasm in the UK.

 

[Spring Feather]

No Spring Feather, in answer to your last question. We make no money and don't care. We are retired hobby breeders with a passion.

Okay, so is it the breeding which you have the real passion for, or the running them on (under your control and ownership) and seeing where they go in life? Mine is the latter interestingly enough. Which you may think totally seems to contradict what I usually do in regards to when I sell them. However I'll explain a little further. To run on youngsters where I live would mean travelling hundreds/thousands of miles to get them out to the 'big' shows. It would mean rearranging my whole lifestyle. I am not willing to sacrifice that therefore I sell to approved homes and as the breeder I'm able to piggyback off *their* successes with the horse.

I don't ride much and I don't compete so it is always a matter of employing others.

Is this part of the passion? Or is this just the feel-good factor which you could also enjoy with someone else owning the horse (as I do)?

I think selling rare breeds can be a challenge, if they are rare what do they do. I refused to sell the filly who will jump because I knew she would finish up as an endurance horse. Very few pure CB's compete, other than in the show ring another good reason for DIY.

So it's finding approved homes that is, almost, restricting your options?

However, if I keep too many I can breed fewer.

A plus or a negative? As a rare-breed breeder I suspect a negative.

Thank your including some stats on sale prices. I do know that one CB breeder in NA sells foals before they are born, wish we had the same enthusiasm in the UK.

No problem. I intentionally included them to highlight the differences at each stage of the game. Yes selling in uteros is something that a number of breeders do over here. I have recently sold the 2016 foal from one of my mares. Always mixed feelings about doing this type of selling though, however with this particular mare, it is her 2014 filly that I have retained. My intention was always to keep one of her fillies, and this years one was it, so then there was a bit of a scrambling from interested parties to acquire one of her future foals.

There's a lot of think about and consider. I am forever questioning my decisions about when to sell and whether to sell at whatever stage ... but the figures speak for themselves and that's why I sell when I do and it affects not the passion *I* get from breeding. Hope the input, from my perspective, was a little bit useful in helping you try to figure out your best course of action.

 

[Oscar]

Why not advertise and test the market, you don't have to sell if you don't like the potential purchaser. Also no harm in advertising internationally, lots of people in the US, Aus, Canada etc like to import as it's often cheaper and they have the kudos of an imported horse! And the U.S./Canada market are prepared to pay a decent price for a decent horse.

 

[Rollin]

Thank you SF and Oscar for your replies.

SF We Europeans tend to forget the distances involved in North America and Canada. We are fortunate in having lots of competition within an hour. This year we have been very lucky that our young stallion has not had to travel more than 90mins for his endurance competitions.

However, I do also wonder if selling to a really skilled professional would be better for the breed. The Shagya's are easier than the CB's because the Shagya does have a good and more recent record in some EU stud books. Example Ramiro Z's grandsire was an Anglo Shagya Arab.

Today you need to look a long way back in Oldenburgh and Holstein stud books to find the influence of the CB, so their importance has been forgotten.

SF you have given me food for thought but I think as at the moment there is no reason to make money I am going to keep my two potential 'stars'.

Oscar, I was going to advertise my CB filly in the USA but decided against it. She is very special, I always worry that CB mares will finish up only as brood mares for TB stallions, a job they do very well, but which does not help the breed to survive. I think she will make an eventer as a pure bred rather than a TBxCB.

I am an OAP just hope I live long enough!!!

Thank you both.

 

[Casey76]

I know the price of Mérens has fallen significantly over the past few years, and the number of OC registrations is going through the roof... along with this are things like white feet creeping in. The pool of PP Mérens seems to be rather static, and although you see the same élevages producing quality foals, it is getting exteremely difficult to find PP horses which are unrelated.

I paid over the odds for my mare, who had done nothing at 6 years old, and she has very average breeding - no champions in her lines at all... but she only has one common ancestor to my youngster and that is in the 5th generation, which is very, very rare.

I would absolutley love to contribute to the recovery of the Mérens breed, unfortunately it just isn't possible at the moment as I'm on livery and my YM is stalwartly against having any foals around. There are some very interesting debates going on in Mérens circles at the moment, about what constitutes a "real" Mérens. I've had quite a few people tell me that my youngster isn't a "true" Mérens as he is 16.1 (even though the stud book removed the upper height limit in the 1990's), even though he is the epitome of the breed, he's just very large. Whether that is all breeding (his sire and grand-sire are very big) or whether it is partly nurture (non-Ariège bred Mérens tend to be bigger due to environmental factors), who knows. I know I have a very large, solid horse, who has exceptional breeding, paces to die for, that I gelded so he could have a normal life. There are days when I really regret that, because he is shaping up to be a fabulous horse; then I tell myself he wouldn't have any kind of life if I had kept him entire - there are too few places around here which cater for stallions, and those that do are mainly boxed for 23 hours with 1hr individual turnout a day.

 

[Rollin]

Casey it is really nice to hear from another Rare breed enthusiast. An English friend near us has a Merens for carriage driving it is a lovely breed. I thought of them as small horses about the same height as a Fell, so interesting your boy has made over 16hh.

Environment DOES make a difference IMO. We had CB inspectors in France last year and they were stunned when they saw our foal of 6 months. Interestingly we took a horse to our nearest horspital, the Professor, who is an FEI vet with a fine reputation, took one look at our address and said "I know your farm you have fantastic grazing".

In this region keeping an entire is less challenging but we did look for a farm in Alsace for two years so I know how difficult it is to find the right place.

As far are the stud book is concerned we are able to select stallions for our mares which will be 'less' in bred i.e. help widen the gene pool of the population as a whole. It is called the SPARKS programme and was developed from work done in Zoos worldwide to preserve other endangered species. My stallion is a good mate for our mares, and for his daughters I have frozen semen from two other stallions.

It is a shame you had to cut a nice horse. Pictures?

 

[Casey76]

I love showing off my boy

tbh, I think I horrified the Mérens enthusiasts by turning him out trimmed, rather than au naturel

I do get a lot of comments from visitors to the yard who can't belive he is only 3.