Breeding a foal for no good reason ?

[Mary3050]

Hi guys ,
So I was talking to a friend last night which got me thinking about are we in the UK a little happy to over breed anything and everything . I myself have worked for a breeder but they had a rarer less common type of horse.

So my friend was telling me about this riding school establishment they are well know in the area usually do great stuff with disabled , unprivileged children and have taken many horse from bad situation and rescues. They where however struggling to make ends meet in lockdown . So a few local people helped them out which included my friend and her hubby . They gave them some hay and straw produced by them not loads they think only about £300 worth . My friend took them some bits and bobs up rugs, stuff like that to replace any that had broken etc . She also brought them a few bags of feed each month . However my friend now feels a little disgruntled . As the owner of the riding school has had a foal out of a mare that’s owned by the riding school . They had but a full registered horse a breed that’s not got lots of individuals left to a cob that’s not got the most amazing confirmation but is “ a pretty colour” . The foal arrived a few weeks ago so mare was took to the stallion in may/ April last year . When the riding school was struggling to make ends meet . My friends found the stud fee was £500 plus mare being on livery there .

When my friend asked the owner about the foal and asked if there was a reason she didn’t put the mare to the same breed stallion . She said that she has always dreamed about having a foal she breed and wanted one that colour which she wouldn’t have got if she put to a full breed stallion . She also said it she thinks it’s nice for the riding school kids to see a foal .

My friend is a little annoyed as what her and her husband have spent helping them has cost more than the stud fee etc . I agree that it wasn’t the right thing to do by the owner but I more couldn’t understand why she would want to breed a cob rather than a rare breed . I don’t doubt that the foals not going to have a good life or anything like that but it lead me to think are we over breeding in the UK .

Just wondering if it’s becoming more common and acceptable to breed anything and everything these days . I know prices have gone up but I can still get cobs like that for less than it all the cost it would have been for the stud fees , vets care etc ?
Would be interested to hear other views

 

[Not_so_brave_anymore]

£500 stud fee for a nothing much cob with poor conformation? Is that the going rate? With stud livery and vet's fees, surely she's not even going to break even if she sells the foal? And if she keeps it, that's at least 4 years' worth of general upkeep costs for basically a cute pet.

People obviously make poor breeding choices all the time (there's a fairly famous Instagram girl with a cob with deep rooted behavioural problems, and lameness issues stemming from poor bum-high conformation, and she's currently excitedly blogging about trying to put this mare into foal ?‍) but to be accepting charity whilst sneakily spending a small fortune on breeding is really exceptionally awful.

 

[Mary3050]

£500 stud fee for a nothing much cob with poor conformation? Is that the going rate? With stud livery and vet's fees, surely she's not even going to break even if she sells the foal? And if she keeps it, that's at least 4 years' worth of general upkeep costs for basically a cute pet.

People obviously make poor breeding choices all the time (there's a fairly famous Instagram girl with a cob with deep rooted behavioural problems, and lameness issues stemming from poor bum-high conformation, and she's currently excitedly blogging about trying to put this mare into foal ?‍) but to be accepting charity whilst sneakily spending a small fortune on breeding is really exceptionally awful.

My thoughts exactly if she had Put the mare to a registered stallion the foal would have been worth 8 times what it the cob will be . I don’t think they plan on selling it . My friend that taking the kids on a day trip to the mare and foal sanctuary or even better offering a home to a mare and foal from there . Awful isn’t it and what when the prices come down all the horses ending up in rescues . Just wrong in my opinion!

 

[honetpot]

I think if the owner of the riding school can fund it themselves, they take a wage, it's up to them how they spend their money. Over lock down there have been many government grants for established businesses. Lock down last time happened over winter, they had a poor summer of trade, should they sell their stock and not be able to trade when they reopen?
The breeding. Well there are many different types of cobs, I have owned two coloured cobs, both by registered sires, and worth a fair amount of money, even before last year. They were bred to be either a show cob, or SHP, with good movement but with the bonus they are reasonably cheap to keep. They have won at large shows, usually as young stock in sports horse/pony classes. Its sound's the mares owner is trying to breed a type, riding horses, hacks, show cobs are usually bred from a mix of breeding. Then there is the whole coloured showing circuit. Even the right traveller bred pony will be worth £2k
I used to show natives, and there are always good and bad un's, you are breeding an animal hopefully to do a job, and it could be argued that a lot of the breeds no longer look like their original breed type. Some are not that easy for a family rider, I love Highlands, but they are like a small tractor with a mind of it own, Jersey cows apparently the same, will do what ever you want, as long as it's what they want.
I always say you have to buy or breed what makes you smile, because when its a bad day, you look at it and remember why you got it in the first place

 

[rabatsa]

I suspect in April last year the owners did not know how the year would pan out so the costs involved with putting the mare in foal would not have been a problem.

However my bugbear is people putting a rare breed mare to bog standard stallions, or even worse to another rare breed - thinking of the trend to cross Cleveland Bay to Suffolk Punch here, you may get a wonderful foal but both breeds need the mares to be bred pure to survive.

 

[Mary3050]

I think if the owner of the riding school can fund it themselves, they take a wage, it's up to them how they spend their money. Over lock down there have been many government grants for established businesses. Lock down last time happened over winter, they had a poor summer of trade, should they sell their stock and not be able to trade when they reopen?
The breeding. Well there are many different types of cobs, I have owned two coloured cobs, both by registered sires, and worth a fair amount of money, even before last year. They were bred to be either a show cob, or SHP, with good movement but with the bonus they are reasonably cheap to keep. They have won at large shows, usually as young stock in sports horse/pony classes. Its sound's the mares owner is trying to breed a type, riding horses, hacks, show cobs are usually bred from a mix of breeding. Then there is the whole coloured showing circuit. Even the right traveller bred pony will be worth £2k
I used to show natives, and there are always good and bad un's, you are breeding an animal hopefully to do a job, and it could be argued that a lot of the breeds no longer look like their original breed type. Some are not that easy for a family rider, I love Highlands, but they are like a small tractor with a mind of it own, Jersey cows apparently the same, will do what ever you want, as long as it's what they want.
I always say you have to buy or breed what makes you smile, because when its a bad day, you look at it and remember why you got it in the first place

Yep I suggested that to my friend but if they got a grant why did they Keep asking for donations . If they wanted a cob type then that’s fine but why use a rare breed mare and put her to a stallion with poor confirmation for the colouring it produced ? I have been to HOYS on a colour that was brought from the gypsies but have had good confirmation. I think cross breeds are great for some jobs / types but our rare breed need saving not crossing with to make more of what we already have plenty off .

 

[Mary3050]

I suspect in April last year the owners did not know how the year would pan out so the costs involved with putting the mare in foal would not have been a problem.

However my bugbear is people putting a rare breed mare to bog standard stallions, or even worse to another rare breed - thinking of the trend to cross Cleveland Bay to Suffolk Punch here, you may get a wonderful foal but both breeds need the mares to be bred pure to survive.

I suggested that finance may have improved and they just didn’t say anything . Exactly it’s not necessary I don’t see why breed a rare mare with a cob which the uk has plenty of for colour ! She could have had a right good thing going having a rare foal teaching the kids how the foal will help the breed .

 

[Clodagh]

If the lady wanted a foal of a particular colour then the stallion choice was entirely up to her. I hope she gets a lovely foal of the colour she wanted.

 

[stormox]

Their mare, their choice of stallion. Leave people to do their own thing and dont interfere. I dont think the stallion could be too bad if thats his fee.

 

[stormox]

My thoughts exactly if she had Put the mare to a registered stallion the foal would have been worth 8 times what it the cob will be . I don’t think they plan on selling it . My friend that taking the kids on a day trip to the mare and foal sanctuary or even better offering a home to a mare and foal from there . Awful isn’t it and what when the prices come down all the horses ending up in rescues . Just wrong in my opinion!

Its not 'awful' it is their choice to breed what they want. A lot if these rare breeds have a limited gene pool and a crossbred could well be healthier and of better temperament.

 

[ester]

It's up to the owner what they want to breed especially if they were planning on keeping it as suggested, that's not breeding for no reason, that's breeding because you want an offspring.

 

[milliepops]

yeah the breeding thing seems kind of irrelevant really in the list of potential things to get outraged by. this seems more about the people who donated the hay being peed off that the owner spent money on something else.

I think it's generally best to keep one's beak out. you never know what decisions were based on or whether there's other stuff going on.

 

[honetpot]

Yep I suggested that to my friend but if they got a grant why did they Keep asking for donations . If they wanted a cob type then that’s fine but why use a rare breed mare and put her to a stallion with poor confirmation for the colouring it produced ? I have been to HOYS on a colour that was brought from the gypsies but have had good confirmation. I think cross breeds are great for some jobs / types but our rare breed need saving not crossing with to make more of what we already have plenty off .

The reason why rare breeds are rare, is often they are no longer being used for the purpose they were bred for. Even studs who's main breed is perhaps a rare breed will do breed crosses, because people want some traits from both animals, and they are often more saleable.
I would imagine someone who runs a riding school knows exactly what sort of type she wants to breed. You have to separate out does she have the knowledge to breed, which by the sounds of it she has, she probably knows a lot more about the stallion than you, and should she have asking for donations for her business. I think they are two different issues.

 

[Snowfilly]

I think there’s two different issues there.

One, breeding while in a financial pickle. Not a great idea, not something I agree with. Certainly shouldn’t have done it while needing money from others but no-one knows her situation. The covering might have been done before everything went to hell with repeated lockdowns.

Two, breeding ‘just because.’ If the mare is sound and a nice person and you’ve got the time and know how, I don’t see a lot wrong with breeding from her. Not all foals need to be world champions- look on here any day to see people complaining about the lack of riding club allrounders.

Breeding outside the breed isn’t something that would bother me - some small number breeds have very closed gene pools or dodgy genetics - I adore clydes but the cancer issue they have means I’d only ever have a cross now - and if she wants the foal for herself, I don’t see what harm a crossbred does. Just because you own a mare doesn’t mean you have a responsibility to save the breed.

And you say she’s breeding this for herself? Why shouldn’t she have something of a colour she wants, rather than a more valuable pure bred?

 

[Bellaboo18]

So firstly, I dont think any riding school (especially in these weird times) is ever going to turn down donations or help. Really they'd be crazy to! So it's up to individuals to donate if they feel able and donate what they can afford to lose. That's their part over.

Breeding. Yes I think sometimes people think, (quite often after injury) oo shes a mare let's put her in foal seemingly without much thought to if the mare would make a good broodmare etc. BUT it sounds in this case the owner has thought what she wants out of a foal (yes even colour) and bred accordingly. Seems very sensible!

 

[Shilasdair]

Firstly, gifts should be given unconditionally. And then forgotten about.

Secondly, people do breed from their own beloved horses - and this is probably THE best reason for breeding. There's a reason people love their mares - wanting to reproduce something you are happy with is a good plan.

Thirdly, if anything I would argue that there are far too many sharp competition warmbloods bred - and far too few riding club types. In the UK most riders do it for leisure and pleasure - so sane, kind temperaments, general health and easy management are more important than flashy paces or jumping ability.

 

[Goldenstar]

I would also argue we breed to few sensible traditional riding horses .

Your friends where kind to help someone out but that’s that .

 

[Quigleyandme]

Your friends have been very generous and I can understand they feel their generosity has been taken advantage of but nobody could have foreseen in Spring 2020 how the pandemic would affect us all and for how long. As for the choice of stallion, that has to be a personal choice.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

So she paid £500 stud fee for a coloured cob!?!? Someone's laughing ...

 

[Wishfilly]

I'm guessing the father is a double dilute, hence the stud fee, with the aim to get a buckskin or palomino foal.

I also think OP may have the dates slightly wrong- if the mare foaled May this year, wouldn't she have gone to stud last June? When riding schools were able to open back up and things were looking a bit more financially secure? I think it's fairly unlikely the mare had a 13 month gestation, which is what an April covering implies (I know stranger things have happened).

FWIW, I know a riding school owner who used to breed a small number of foals for her own enjoyment. She mostly keeps the foals and brings them on slowly, meaning they can be used in the school. A small number do get sold eventually, to people who know them well and I know she would take any of them back if necessary (and has the land to do so). Which I think is as good as it gets, for a horse really!

If you friend is unhappy with how the money was spent, then I'd suggest she doesn't help the riding school in the future. But personally I agree with the owner- it's nice for kids who wouldn't normally get the chance to see/interact with a foal and learn a bit about how horses grow up and develop!

ETA: Maybe if this goes well, she will consider breeding a purebred foal in the future, but I don't think not breeding a purebred means someone is contributing to "overbreeding".

 

[Lois Lame]

Firstly, gifts should be given unconditionally. And then forgotten about.

Secondly, people do breed from their own beloved horses - and this is probably THE best reason for breeding. There's a reason people love their mares - wanting to reproduce something you are happy with is a good plan.

Thirdly, if anything I would argue that there are far too many sharp competition warmbloods bred - and far too few riding club types. In the UK most riders do it for leisure and pleasure - so sane, kind temperaments, general health and easy management are more important than flashy paces or jumping ability.

Sometimes the like button just isn't enough.

 

[Abi90]

Firstly, gifts should be given unconditionally. And then forgotten about.

Secondly, people do breed from their own beloved horses - and this is probably THE best reason for breeding. There's a reason people love their mares - wanting to reproduce something you are happy with is a good plan.

Thirdly, if anything I would argue that there are far too many sharp competition warmbloods bred - and far too few riding club types. In the UK most riders do it for leisure and pleasure - so sane, kind temperaments, general health and easy management are more important than flashy paces or jumping ability.

a

A bit off topic but I love this. I have bred from my mare because she’s sane, kind, in good health (bar one arthritic joint from an injury) and and easy keeper. She also moves more nicely than average and jumps very well. I had totally expected to get chastised for the decision but what I mostly got was “I wish more people would breed from horses like this, rather than bonkers sharp ones because they have flashy paces”

Back on topic, OP, who breeds what with what is really no one else’s business if the owner intends to keep and care for the foal, which it seems like is happening.

With regard to the stud fee, you don’t know the financial circumstances at the time. Perhaps the stud fee was a gift? Perhaps the owner saw it as investment back into the business if she has bred something safe she can use in the riding school?

 

[honetpot]

When I used to go PC regularly, I would often see older mares that were so patient with small riders, and think that's the sort we should be breeding from. Instead, we get people breeding to win in the show/competition ring, but it has to be prepped by an adult rider and worked hard on a regular basis.
My friends neighbours bought a pony for the children, it was pregnant, and the child lost interest, so until this year when the younger child had a friend that rides started riding neither had done anything for about seven years. Much to my friend's amazement neither of these ponies have been trained, but two novice children are hacking them out with supervision, through the woods and on the roads. There the biggest problem is having a finding a saddle to fit.
In the old day's pre 1970's, farmers would have an odd mare, and put the travelling stallion over them, I saw this done. The stallion, which was HIS walked out of the trailer, covered a large cob mare in the yard, and I think the covering fee then was about £50, and was then put on the trailer. When the resulting foal was four it was about 16 hands, it was used to escort rides in the riding school. Most of our SJ's of the 70's were the results of farmer breeding either here or in Ireland.

 

[Errin Paddywack]

There used to be a travelling stallion in our area. Very nice small TB called 'Master Ed'. He was a dark red chestnut with a lovely temperament. He threw mostly bright chestnut foals all very distinctive. I had one by him bred by a local farmer who used him on several mares. She was a lovely little mare with a fabulous temperament. Her dam was a chestnut roan welsh who also bred a colt by 'Your Fancy' that went on to compete up to JA in show jumping, he was called 'Fancy Pants'. I never saw a bad one by 'Master Ed'. I think he mostly covered very ordinary mares and nowadays that would be frowned on.