Breeding from a mare with a conformation fault....

jumpthemoon

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Would anyone do this? Or would you only breed from mares with 'perfect' comformation? I'd like to breed my own horse at some point over the next year or so and I have a TB mare, who has excellent temperament, is very trainable and if it wasn't for an injury (not conformation related) would have made a super little competition horse. The only thing is that she has slight sickle hocks.

Now before I get shot down, she was used for breeding by a TB trainer down south, who bred 4 foals from her. I have spoken to him and he said that her first foal was ill and was a little weak, but the other 3 were all strong, straight healthy foals. He said he still has one of them and it is a very nice athletic, strong TB. Her breeding is pretty good too.

What do you think?
 
IMO there are no, or very few mares (or stallions) with perfect conformation. It is a matter of taking the conformation default into account, and using a stallion that can perhaps overcome this default in the offspring.

Often some conformational problems are not genetic at all, but the result of incorrect feeding, under or over use as a youngster, and even the development of tendons/ligaments etc while still a foetus (lying in the wrong position often causes tendon/ligament problems which if not addressed after birth can become conformational defaults)! These are not necessarily genetic faults, and will not be passed onto offsrping.

It all comes down to how severe the default is, is it genetic, and choosing the right stallion to make up the fault.
 
Thanks zoeshiloh
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- Would that be the sort of thing that the vet could help me with, or would I be better off talking to breeders to find out if it is worth breeding from her and what I should look for in a stallion?
 
Do you have a good breeding vet local to you? I would ask for their opinion - there are some breeding stallions (graded) out there with sicklehocks - I guess it all depends on the severity of the individual.

I am not saying that any horse with conformational defaults should be bred from just because the owner chooses a "perfect" stallion - that is certainly not the case. Perhaps some more research into your mare might help you decide? Look at her parents and grandparents conformation, that will give you more of an idea. Sicklehocks can be a genetic problem, but they can also be caused by environmental factors pre and post birth (lots of info on internet if you google it, lol).

Breeding any horse is a big decision, and one not to be taken lightly. Talk to you vet AND the stud, and get as much information as you can so that you can make an informed decision.
 
‘‘The day you give up taking risks, you give up breeding. Looking for a horse with no faults, you will end up with a horse with no quality. There are no miracles in this business of breeding, be pragmatic, be passionate and keep your eyes open.’’
Arnaud Evain
 
Show me the perfect horse! I've seen a few amazing examples of horse flesh, but I honestly would not say that they were perfect!

Yes I'd breed from a horse with a 'minor' or accountable conformation fault - in fact I have!! My mare toes in, but she did not see a farrier till she was 4! Neither of her foals toe in!

I've seen some shocking conformation faults bred from in the TB and Sports Horse Industries!! Some that IMHO should not have been bred from, but they have been for the bloodlines/family.... However, some of these horses that have been bred from have gone on to produce some incredible horses!

It was knowing the above, that gave me the confidence to breed from mine - but then I bought her to breed from and eventually ride - maybe.
 
[ QUOTE ]
‘‘The day you give up taking risks, you give up breeding. Looking for a horse with no faults, you will end up with a horse with no quality. There are no miracles in this business of breeding, be pragmatic, be passionate and keep your eyes open.’’
Arnaud Evain

[/ QUOTE ]

Well said.

I have yet to see the perfect horse, and I probably won't in my life time, a few have come close, but as they say "no cigar"
 
It depends on what you're trying to breed...

If you're breeding for the show ring then conformation is critical and only a small amount of imperfection would be acceptable.

If you're breeding for a companion, conformation faults can be tolerated as the level of work they will undertake is relatively low and temperament would be far more critical.

If you're breeding for an Olympic discipline, athleticism is the most important attribute. Some conformational defects are acceptable as long as the do not directly predispose certain types of sport related injuries. If you look at most top level performers, very few would win a beauty contest.

You as the old adage goes... it's horses for courses.
 
As an addition to the above, different faults are more or less "acceptable" in different disciplines and some lines even seem to "cope" with faults that crop up in them better than others. For example, lots of dressage horses seem to be absolutely fine toeing in, some quite severely, and there's a school of thought that mild bilateral, single rotation toeing in might even convey an "advantage" as it can free up the elbow. It really depends on whether the fault is going to affect performance and soundness, which depends at least partially on what the demands are going to be.

Unless you're breeding for conformation classes form is to some extent secondary to function and a horse that works well as a unit is the most successful competitor, which is not even only about conformation.

There is a really interesting on line book called "Ten Conformation Myths" by Judy Wardrope, who studies functional conformation in performance horses. http://www.jwequine.com/index.html She has some very interesting conclusions and talks a lot about the relationship between "correct" and "functional".
 
Some very good points, well made.

I too have heard this about freeing up the elbow!

That said, is this where I say that my mare, who toes in, is the dam of a county winner?



From an observational perspective and I'll stick within the TB Industry;

Raging Apalachee, the dam of Breeders' Cup Sprint winner (1999) Artax, had shocking front legs, yet Artax has been widely commended for having the most superb front end!

Cahooters, the dam of Buddha (Gr.1 Wood Memorial 2002), had a seriously forelimb deviation, didn't stop her producing the goods, both on the track and in the sales ring, as the weanling/short yearling full sister to Buddha sold for $1.1m a few years back.
 
This is all very interesting and very useful - thanks folks
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Well I'd be trying to breed a horse for me to event on, so I guess conformation is only important to the extent that I wouldn't want the horse to be more likely to get an injury.

The breeder who had her before said he didn't see any reason why I shouldn't breed from her, so maybe I'll start having a look into stallions and having a chat with some breeders
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The only problem with using TBs as a benchmark, especially with developments in demands for early speed, more running on surface etc, is that there isn't always the same emphasis on long term soundness. I'm not saying many aren't fantastic, sound athletes, just that I've seen some very successful race horses with dicey conformation who were definitely not sound after their - from a sport perspective relatively short - careers, even thought the technically didn't break down. Also, oddly, there seem to be some "faults" that crop up quite often in warmbloods - shortish, steep pasterns come to mind - that don't affect the general mechanism the same was as they do in TBs, perhaps because of compensatory factors.

I do know what you mean about the lack of obvious "cause and effect" sometimes. One friend had a mare who toed in slightly who produced foals from 4 different stallions - one toed in atrociously, two very mildly but hardly noticeable with proper trimming, one was straight as a die. Ho hum.
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It also depends what else they pass on. One stallion I knew had a fantastic career (Olympic medal!) with two extremely upright front feet but stayed sound. His full brother had the same problem, competed only at a much lower level, and didn't, perhaps because his feet were also of a lesser quality. Interestingly, the REAL problem was the first one often passed on his tricky temperament whereas the second was a peach and passed that on to his kids (although he also passed on his feet . . ). Another stallion I know who isn't dead straight in front seems never to pass that on. (Just using stallions as an example because the samples are larger.) Goes to show you never can tell.
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