Breeding question from a simpleton

[MistletoeMegan]

Now please go easy on me, as I am going to ask a question which I believe to be quite stupid but the only way I will find the answer is to ask the question

If you had a mare, sired by stallion X, would it be safe to put this mare to a stallion whose sire's dam was also sired by stallion X? Is that too close or possibly safe?

Thanks in advance

 

[LynneB]

good lord I must be tired as that just blew my mind trying to work it out. Have a look at this link as this mare's sire is also her grandsire and she is a premium mare for the BWS...no idea if that helps!

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/aa+bewes

 

[MistletoeMegan]

Ha, sorry about that - I confused myself typing it out!

 

[LynneB]

lol it sounded too much like maths and my brain just goes into auto shutoff at the slightest link to that

 

[JanetGeorge]

[ QUOTE ]


If you had a mare, sired by stallion X, would it be safe to put this mare to a stallion whose sire's dam was also sired by stallion X? Is that too close or possibly safe?


[/ QUOTE ]

It would be a bit too close for me. Although some people would do it - if it worked, it's called line-breeding; if it's a disaster, it's in-breeding!

Whether it's safe, no way of knowing. If stallion X has a nasty recessive gene and the mare - and stallion's grandson - ALSO had it, then you'd be in trouble. Could be something relatively minor, like a hernia - or could be something disastrous. I personally wouldn't risk it.

 

[MistletoeMegan]

Thank you

 

[htobago]

With line-breeding like this, it all really depends on the quality of Stallion X!

This is done a lot in the Arab-breeding world. Line-breeding is used to 'fix' certain desirable qualities/characteristics in the pedigree - to ensure that they are more likely to be passed on.

But of course undesirable characteristics will be 'fixed' as well as positive ones, so it is vital to be sure that the horse to whom you are line-breeding (Stallion X in this case) is as near-perfect as possible, and has no undesriable traits (either himself or in his pedigree) that could be passed on.

So if I were you I would research Stallion X and his pedigree very carefully, to make sure he is worthy of line-breeding.

 

[1_old_grey_mare]

Here are four of my favourite "inbreds." These horses were brilliant, however, the flip side of close inbreeding can result in disaster. The choice is yours!

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/capitol+i3

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/rasputin4

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/lord+liberty
(great granddam product of mother-son breeding)

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/bravo6
(dam of four licensed stallions)

 

[dannydunne]

taking it to the extreme...

http://www.paardenfokken.nl/pedigree.php?horseid=7148

full brother x sister mating

 

[KarynK]

[ QUOTE ]

If you had a mare, sired by stallion X, would it be safe to put this mare to a stallion whose sire's dam was also sired by stallion X? Is that too close or possibly safe?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not a stupid question at all and quite a complicated subject

That mating would be termed inbreeding and would be written 2x4, so that ancestor would appear in the 2nd and 4th generation of the pedigree of the offspring. I would term that a mild inbreeding as although X is close to the mare in the stallion X is three generations back.

Thoroughbreds have been using this technique of concentrating the genes of a notable ancestor to improve the likelihood of better performance in the offspring for hundreds of years and it works. They also linebreed (Inbreeding on horses further back in the pedigree (5th generation and beyond) particularly with female families). Some of the more successful inbreeding’s are upon horses that are themselves inbred and you can follow this right back to the start of the breed in some pedigrees.

Some stallions have formed dynasties because they are so powerful in throwing good horses when inbred upon, St Simon and his father Galopin helped the great Snr Tesio out in founding his exceptional breeding operation and Northern Dancer is a modern example of success with this technique.

But if you inbreed too much you loose the advantage and a phenomenon called inbreeding depression results where performance is actually lost and there is no advantage to inbreeding further. At this point an outcross to an unrelated horse can result in something called Hybrid Vigour, where a rush of new unrelated genes enhances performance. Ever see stallions advertised as being free of Northern Dancer Blood? This is why.

However you must always bear in mind that as well as inbreeding on desirable traits in an ancestor you can also be concentrating the genes of less desirable traits as well. So you must be sure that the horse that you are working with is worthy of the task!

Generally speaking, and there are of course exceptions TB’s are not bred much closer than 3x3, this is very sensible and 2x4 as above would be on a par with this.

Much use has been made of the word line breeding in other breeds to describe very close inbreeding notably Father Daughter, (it sounds better) and it has been heralded as a way to test the genetic strengths and weakness of the stallion! For me this is far too close and possibly the reason for a spate of genetic diseases such as HYPP and HERDA etc.

So it's a decision for you to make but it should be an informed decision with some research into X to back it. I do use inbreeding and linebreeding but with care.