Breeding TB's... numpty questions...

[wench]

Just something I have been pondering for a while.

What do you do, if say you have a Weatherbys reg TB mare, and a Weatherbys reg TB stallion, and everything is done with AI, what stud book do you register them with, as its obviously a purebred TB, but not done naturallu? Do weatherbys have such a studbook?

Second (again very dumb), I have a TB mare. There is a TB stallion down the road from me who is pure TB (has raced) and does natural covering. However, looking at his stud fee, I don't think he sires many race horses (hes about £400 a go!). If the two of them produced a foal, would it be eligible for registration with Weatherbys, or does the stallion have to be from an expensive stallion shopping list!

 

[Bug2007]

As far as i know in all instances that you have described you can have the foal registered with Weatherby's.

 

[Laafet]

Well they can't go in the General Stud book, but maybe elegible (sp) for the Non-Thoroughbred Register which is held by Weatherbys.

 

[sallyf]

If you had a TB mare and TB stallion and foal was concieved by AI then you would have to go to a studbook such as SHBgb to register the foal.
If you have a TB mare and TB stallion and mare was natural covered then foal would be eligable for Weatherbys papers ,the stud fee has nothing to do with it.
Hope this helps

 

[Sportznight]

Agree with Laafet, absolutely could not be registered in the GSB, but could go on the NTR.

Personally I'd register said offspring with SHB(GB).

 

[wench]

But then when are they eligible to race? I was pretty sure they had to be naturally covered and not AI?

 

[Sportznight]

Only TB's conceived via natural cover can race (Happy to stand corrected).

 

[sallyf]

Agree with Laafet, absolutely could not be registered in the GSB, but could go on the NTR.

Personally I'd register said offspring with SHB(GB).

NTR registered offspring still have to be natural covered as they can still race so the same rules apply.
I have 2 TB stallions that give both natural and AI certificates from weatherbys but if we AI a TB mare and issue a weatherbys AI cert the foal will have to go elsewhere to be registered.
Years ao they hadan artificial breeding register for stuff that was AI'd but that is long since defunct

 

[Sportznight]

Ahhhh thanks for that Sally! I thought I may have been getting confused there, it's the ABR that I recall. I only deal in racing TB's, so all natural.

 

[magic104]

Sorry but find the whole thing archaic, what with DNA. For so many reasons AI if far better for mare & owner.

 

[KarynK]

The Australian chap, that AP told us about is still challenging the Australian stud book about using AI, I think the case is back in court in the summer? If he wins things may have to change worldwide.

It's is pointless and risky to be flying and moving valuable bloodstock all over the world to stud when you can keep them at home. Not to mention the disease transmission risk to all of us that that represents!!

There really is no real excuse now, regulation and DNA testing answers virtually all the "objections" that have been raised to the use of AI in TB's. But I fear that disease transmission is going to be the catalyst eventually and that will be too late.


Actually AI in TB's is not illegal if you read the rules! You can inseminate with the ejaculate of a natural mating, read into that what you will but somewhere in the tens of thousands of TB's produced in the world each year I would put money on their being some back door AI babies!!!!!

 

[sallyf]

The Australian chap, that AP told us about is still challenging the Australian stud book about using AI, I think the case is back in court in the summer? If he wins things may have to change worldwide.

It's is pointless and risky to be flying and moving valuable bloodstock all over the world to stud when you can keep them at home. Not to mention the disease transmission risk to all of us that that represents!!

There really is no real excuse now, regulation and DNA testing answers virtually all the "objections" that have been raised to the use of AI in TB's. But I fear that disease transmission is going to be the catalyst eventually and that will be too late.


Actually AI in TB's is not illegal if you read the rules! You can inseminate with the ejaculate of a natural mating, read into that what you will but somewhere in the tens of thousands of TB's produced in the world each year I would put money on their being some back door AI babies!!!!!

What it actually means is that you can stand by the stallion as he comes off of the mare and collect any of the end of the ejaculate as he withdraws and AI this to reinforce what the stallion has already deposited inside the mare.
There can be slightly more to this than that but not going into it here just putting the bare facts up.

 

[Jamana]

I dread the day if AI ever is allowed by Weatherby's. It is the final control to the increasing book size of popular sires. The physical number of mares that a stallion can cover in the limited time of the breeding season is about the only control there is and already you have horses covering 300 mares.

Equally, if a stallion gets injured and cannot cover (as has happened to Tamayuz due to getting cast in his box) his mares have a choice of either waiting for him of finding another stallion. As many sires are full at this time of year, the mares will distribute. Had he been available by AI this wouldn't happen.

As far as regulation goes how would you limit the number of mare inseminated by say,Dubawi? Even with natural cover and dual hemisphere covering you can have a huge amount of stock on the ground by a sire before he has had runners. Giants Causeway had more than 1000 foals born before any were running. What if he was found to have passed on a heart defect or fragile front limbs for example? That was 1000 foals from natural covering, so a % of mares would have been barren or not got in in time or became late because the horse can only physically cover 5 mares a day. How many would there have been if those mares had stayed at home the technically the horse was 'covering' 20-30 a day........

I think it is rather funny to complain about the risk 'to all of us' from the potential disease transmission by flying bloodstock around the world. This is such a tightly regulated industry with every swab/blood test carried out before moving to stud in this country let alone abroad. Correct me if I am wrong but hasn't EVERY outbreak of EVA/CEM recently been in a non-industry horse imported from the continent? I would say that these 'Sports Horses' pose far more of a risk to our Bloodstock than vice versa.

I am not a fan of AI but I can see that it may have it's uses in stallions that are still competing. But I think that it would have a devastating effect on the racing industry.

One side issue to it, and this is not a reason not to AI in TB's just a personal view, I think that a TB stallion leads a much nicer life at stud with contact with live horses rather than the stallions who only meet phantoms. I saw the videos on ground collection and felt very sad for that pony stallion who's only means of stimulation was completely artificial. Mares urine but no mare and a man scratching him. Then not even allowed to jump up and cover but just thrust into an AV. To my mind 'training' these horses is little more than making them into the equine equivalent of a sexual deviant. Very sad.

 

[Alec Swan]

If you had a TB mare and TB stallion and foal was concieved by AI then you would have to go to a studbook such as SHBgb to register the foal.
If you have a TB mare and TB stallion and mare was natural covered then foal would be eligable for Weatherbys papers ,the stud fee has nothing to do with it.
Hope this helps

Would I be right in saying that the Weatherbys NON TB register wont accept foals conceived by AI? I thought that the idea of such a register was for those horses which were NOT conceived by natural cover, so ineligible for the main stud book.

Alec.

 

[Amos]

Sorry to jump in on this post, but can I ask why they don't accept foals conceived by AI? Not being a thoroughbred person, I've never even considered it, thought it would have been the only way with such valuable animals

 

[sallyf]

Would I be right in saying that the Weatherbys NON TB register wont accept foals conceived by AI? I thought that the idea of such a register was for those horses which were NOT conceived by natural cover, so ineligible for the main stud book.

Alec.

Weatherbys non TB register do not accept foals concieved by AI.
Actually the reason for the non TB register is that most, like one of my stallions are in fact full TB and concieved by natural cover but they have a blip in there pedigrees mainly during the war years when something wasnt registered properly.
With my stallion the mare in question raced and was full TB but just wasnt registered as a broodmare which made the offspring ineligable for the GSB.
By the time the problem was tried to be rectified the mare was dead so no DNA available.
What many people also dont understand is there are 2 arms to the NTR there are the stallions like mine who are weatherbys NTR by birth with a missing ancestor and then there is the NTR VII appendix which is where the likes of Goshka Ringo and Simsars spider are registered.
This is a register that mares and stallions can go onto ,stallions with an inspection to get covering certificates but they will be completely pedigree unknown with weatherbys as this is not the studbook of birth so the horse in question will have another passport which has merely been overstamped.

 

[Maesfen]

I'm with Jamana all the way. Natural cover only would do a hell of a lot to lower birth figures and in turn help to keep youngstock more in demand if there aren't so many on the ground. (simplistic view I know) Either that or stallions, including those using AI are strictly limited to the amount of mares they can cover any year and to a 'definite date' season too as used by Tbs. It's about time sporthorses got in line with a time proved system rather than the free for all that exists at the moment, no wonder there are so many on the market; it defeats the object of being of special breeding, so ultimately less desirable to consumers which brings prices down.
You can argue that TBs of no use to racing bring prices down too but in many cases, they have the temperament that means they can go on to other jobs with amateur riders but where do you go with sporthorses that are too hot to handle for any but the most professional but are no good at their job?

 

[Sportznight]

You can argue that TBs of no use to racing bring prices down too but in many cases, they have the temperament that means they can go on to other jobs with amateur riders but where do you go with sporthorses that are too hot to handle for any but the most professional but are no good at their job?

HA!! SO true!! IMO/E TB's get a rough ride with being hot headed and wimps, when out of the racing world and undoubtedly some are! Though it does seem that there are more WB's out there that people struggle with.

Going back to the AI thing - I'm on the fence on this one. With DNA testing it would be very easy to limit the books of mares any stallion can cover, per hemisphere. There are ways and means of making sure that no one is able to get around the limit - say 200 per season. It would be beneficial for the stallions, in respects of the strain that natural coverings of a high number put on a horse physically, as well as mentally. Hennessey famously developed an almost non-existent libido following repeated seasons shuttling and covering huge books of mares - he simply wasn't interested and believe me, I have better things to be doing that standing in a covering shed at 3am with a mare to be covered waiting for the stallion to decided that actually he can be bothered. Environmentally it would have to be better, with less plane loads of horses shipping around the globe and also mares being shipped all over Europe in the breeding season. Which would also be better for foals, as even though there are legislations in place regarding the shipping of breeding stock, there are unscrupulous people that will travel week old foals from country to country, just to cover the mare on her foal heat!

However, AI would have a huge knock on effect on the transport industry! Many one man bands would go out of business and the economy needs things like that like a whole in the head! I also cannot help but feel that AI in the TB industry would just be yet another way to line the pockets of the vets....

 

[Alec Swan]

I'm with Jamana all the way. Natural cover only would do a hell of a lot to lower birth figures and in turn help to keep youngstock more in demand if there aren't so many on the ground. (simplistic view I know) Either that or stallions, including those using AI are strictly limited to the amount of mares they can cover any year and to a 'definite date' season too as used by Tbs. It's about time sporthorses got in line with a time proved system rather than the free for all that exists at the moment, no wonder there are so many on the market; it defeats the object of being of special breeding, so ultimately less desirable to consumers which brings prices down.
You can argue that TBs of no use to racing bring prices down too but in many cases, they have the temperament that means they can go on to other jobs with amateur riders but where do you go with sporthorses that are too hot to handle for any but the most professional but are no good at their job?

Maesfen, I really can't agree with you. The TB industry, and the supply of foals, is governed largely, by a current or perceived, economic state. As we no longer have a viable horse slaughter industry, all so often, totally unsuitable mares are being covered by which ever stallion is closest and cheapest, because there is no other use for them, and I'll accept, that we all know where that will end up!

As for the breeding of sport horses, I think that restricting the coverings to Natural, would send the supply of top class horses, into decline. Those mares which are currently competing would be unable to visit studs for embryo transfer donor-ship, for instance, and because of their need to qualify.

In racing the very well bred, and from a race view point, the successful mares, are taken out of racing, at a relatively youthful age, and put in foal. That tends not to happen within the sport horse breeding sector. The more successful mares are too valuable to be used as brood mares, because the foal prices are all so often to slight to repay the ongoing costs of getting a filly to a rising repayment, of her costs.

Difficult, isn't it? I suspect that the current, and ongoing recession may well prove to be a good thing. The less than successful racing TB mares, are being discarded (they can be ideal embryo recipients!), and similarly, those less than ideal sport horse brood mares are following their elitist sisters. Sport horse breeders, tend to view their mares as a hobby, and not as a business. If the day ever arrives when exceptionally well bred foals are fetching £30-50k, then things will change, they'll have to, but until then, we'll have to muddle along, as best we can!!

I've rather gone off at a tangent, again! I actually think that it would be far better to allow the current economic climate to dictate the principles of breeding, than a Natural Cover Only condition. That's what I think, anyway!

Alec.

 

[Jamana]

But how can the number of TB mares covered be restricted? Whether AI or natural?

Economic conditions do have some effect on bloodstock breeding, people being more circumspect on the mares they are covering is one instance of this, but it does nothing to widen the number of sires used. In fact it has a reverse effect. People are more likely to choose a perceived 'safer' option in greater numbers. With natural covering there is *some* restriction but this would not occur with AI.

Sportznight, I don't see how DNA testing has any implication on restricting book sizes? If it was that easy it would already be going on. Yes I agree standing and waiting for a horse to cover that is very interested in looking at the birds outside or just going back and finishing sleeping for the night is a very boring part of the job. But it is a job and people get paid for it. If that wasn't happening the pay wouldn't happen either....As you rightly say there would be lots of small transporters that would go out of business, but how many people are employed on stallion studs that are required for round-the-clock covering? And boarding studs where all the walk-in's go? The mare's home stud have staff and if they were AI'd at home then the staff there would deal with them. Knock-on effects would be huge I am sure.
The point about Hennessey actually backs up my point that natural covering helps to restrict breedings, if Hennessey only had to cover a phantom to get many mares in foal then his libido would not be affected and his foals could still be being born even now. Do you think that the last of the Storm Cat's would be going through the ring this year if he had been available via AI? Would it be the case that there would be no more AP Indy's?

When there were rumblings about capping book sizes Coolmore were quick to mutter 'Restraint of Trade' and look to the EU to see what their options were......

As for Vets, any chance to charge more is a golden opportunity. Something to have in mind when listening to an argument in favour is if that person that is going to gain financially from any change

 

[KarynK]

It seems that the resistance to AI in TB's is really around numbers and personal ideals, I really cannot see any sound argument for not using AI in TB’s. They are regulated now all you have to do with AI is Make Rules tell the stallion owners a maximum of x amount of covering certs will be available for that stallion in that season and any foals produced in addition to that will not be registrable and stick to it end of story.

In fact if they were of a mind authorities could use AI to help reduce the over use of individual stallions by limiting books to say 200 per breeding season. It would also open up bloodlines from around the world to those breeders to whom a flight to another continent is beyond their budget.

Would you honestly be happy if after some careful planning on physique and pedigree to suddenly be faced with traipsing your mare (and possibly foal) to another stallion if the one you chose was not available, and your mare ready to conceive her ultra early next season foal? Your second choice likely will have a similar pedigree but be a slightly lesser animal in your eyes, he also might be in another country with a full book, or do you keep her safe at home and still use your 1st choice or phone and arrange a UPS delivery from another one of your choices?? No contest for me.

I’m afraid that a serious disease outbreak and I’m not just talking venereal disease, from the unnecessary shuttling of bloodstock is a very real threat to all populations and to those of us at risk from it is no laughing matter. You only have to look at swine flu in Humans to realise that not only can these horses being shuttled for archaic rules introduce new strains of disease around the world, but in mixing strains they can facilitate new more virulent mutations.

http://www.ava.com.au/newsarticle/equine-disease-outbreak-–-update
http://www.africanhorsesickness.co.za/Documents\doc_1.pdf

Any gathering of strange cycling mares and foals is a risk and if I had a valuable mare or any mare and foal for that matter I would not be happy with the risk of lengthy travel, injury from a strange mare or exposure to disease if I had the chance to keep them safe at home.

There is something I could say on your comments about ground collection with a human parallel but on the grounds of equality and decency I won’t, suffice to say that if he didn’t like it he would not have participated, I have seen stallions equally as happy to experience an artificial AV as that of a real mare and without as much personal risk and few only ever meet phantoms, but even if they do and they are willing what’s the problem? Any blokes care to comment???

But what I ask is what about naturally covering 300 plus mares in a very short period of time, then getting on a plane to do it out of season half way round the world, not being allowed to tease their mares, covering sometimes up to 5 x in a day when necessary, is a natural process??? I’m not surprised a heart defect would come to the fore, but that surely would have been obvious when racing??

 

[KarynK]

A quick NB, all TB's are scanned before covering to make the big books possible and it does not require veterinary qualifications to inseminate, so a vet would not make more money??? This would also mean that staff are still required just at home and not at a central stud. And of course if your number one choice is just down the road why not live cover!

Studbooks have the right to protect the breed so if the GSB perceived a treat from overuse of single stallions under European law they could restrict books through this route.

Bloodstock transporters could easily diversify to specialist Semen couriers and will still have the sales and horses in training transport, a shift in emphasis.

You can insist as a registry that all semen is destroyed on the death of a stallion and even ban frozen just fresh and extended to be used. NB Stormcat is available by AI (to racing QH's, Paints and Appaloosas, who use AI Fee $20,000 I believe).

 

[magic104]

Has AI in the sporthorse caused a problem with concentration on just a few stallions, I dont think so. Now mare owners have access to stallions for other countries without the cost of transporting mare/foal. There are many mare owners who have now used a stallion they would never have considered without AI.

The TB industry can easily limit the covering certs for a stallion if they are concerned with the gene pool being reduced. When things get tight more & more racehorses find their way to the meat man. Nothing has changed it has always happened & this includes in-foal mares. I dont think introducing AI is going to make a huge amount of difference. Sadly people have been loosing their jobs for decades due to new technology etc.