Breeding; The practicalities.

[Alec Swan]

Am I the only one who's wondering if there's any point to breeding, apart from if we're to breed for our own use?

Last night I agreed to the sale of a 4 yo who's been professionally backed broken and now he's been turned away and brought in from grass. I wanted £4k for him but accepted £3k. The lady who bought him pointed out that she can buy his like, from the sales in ireland for half of what she agreed to, and I've no way to disagree with her.

I haven't kept a record of the costs, but at an estimate, I'd say that the horse concerned has so far set me back £5 to 6k, and that would be include his share of the costs of his in-foal dam, and the subsequent costs. I don't breed horses to make money (believe it or not :tongue3, and accept that it's a simple if rather costly hobby. That said, what is the point in adding to an already overburdened market place? I look on the commercial websites where others have horses for sale, and see some cracking youngsters, at prices which would make me wonder if they don't have an horrendous flaw.

We are continually being told by those who are trying to big-up there own little market place, all about the green shoots of economy. Bull. What we have now is where we'll still be in 5 years, or perhaps 10. The problem with this is that in 5 years, or so, without the structure of the breeders, the future buyers, those who take a gamble, like a foal and run it on, there will be a marked shortage of young and rideable horses.

The supply chain, it seems to me, is broken. Perhaps it will be that those who have the courage, the facilities and the depth of pocket, to breed and store youngsters, and providing that they use a degree of wisdom in their choice of matings, will be the ones to benefit, because whilst there will still be a demand for youngsters, they simply wont be available as they are now, in 5 years time.

Has anyone else reached the point of "Enough's enough"?

Alec.

 

[Dry Rot]

"A fool breeds a horse, a wise man buys one"

"It's easy to make a small fortune breeding horses. All you need is a large fortune to start with".

Any more out there? Maybe this should be in the old sayings thread....

Never mind, Alec, we'll be OK when the oil runs out. Then we can say "I told you so!"

 

[LilMissy]

I definately am feeling the 'enoughs enough'. The only way to make any return is to sell at weaning but even then there is little appreciation from the general riding community about how much work goes into producing a nice, well mannered baby! Let alone taking it on to riding age and then backing etc...

I know Janetgeorge and Henryhorn are breeding and producing the type of riding horses required by the majority ofthe amaeteur market but probably barely cover costs? Yet posters on this forum seem to positively glory in the fact that they wont pay a decent price tobreeders (and are the quickest to complain when something goes wrong with thier 'cut and shut' bargain!)

 

[bonny]

I don't think it's a matter of people not paying a decent price to cover your costs and hopefully make a profit, it's just another sign that horses are luxury items and during a period of recession people cut back.....it would be the same if you had bought an expensive competition horse a few years ago and thought you should get your money back now that you wanted to sell him. Probably the only money to be made breeding horses now is with the racehorse market, where all the money is in potential !

 

[JanetGeorge]

I know Janetgeorge and Henryhorn are breeding and producing the type of riding horses required by the majority ofthe amaeteur market but probably barely cover costs? Yet posters on this forum seem to positively glory in the fact that they wont pay a decent price tobreeders (and are the quickest to complain when something goes wrong with thier 'cut and shut' bargain!)

I can't speak for Henryhorn - but there's no doubt in my mind that breeders are a charity for people who want to buy horses! Prices have fallen through the floor - I'm stubborn and I won't GIVE horses away - especially if it's a nice Class 1 ID mare I'd rather keep - but I'm still selling them for about half what I'd have asked (and got) 6 years ago!

There are 2 main problems.

1. Through genuine lack of confidence in economics, people aren't buying weanlings/yearlings/2 year olds to 'put away'! So breeders have to run them on and the costs (and demands on pasture) are a real struggle.

2. People ARE buying nice, backed 4 year olds - but too many of them think they should get them for less than they'd have HAD to pay for them as weanlings if buying 4-5 years ago. This is totally unrealistic - and a lot of people trying to get bargain basement horses are actually buying expensive mistakes!

 

[Spring Feather]

I would imagine most dedicated breeders have considered giving up at some time or another, even if for a nano-second. I had planned to retire from breeding at the beginning of 2013, the 2013 foals were going to be my last. But then a few things happened and at the last minute I changed my mind and rebred my mares for 2014 foals. I'm glad I did. It was a momentary gliche in my psyche but friends took the time to point out what I had and where I was going, and that was enough to put me back on-track again.

I generally try to sell my foals at or before weaning. Where I live, the returns when selling at this stage has probably the biggest profit margin for youngsters, however the greatest returns come when the foals are around 5 or 6 years old and are out there competing. The sale prices of these young horses over here are quite staggering! There is still an awful lot of money out there.

I have a very small handful of youngsters that I've kept but they will be sold at some point in the next couple of years. I kept them for different reasons but part of it is financially motivated. I don't mind running youngsters on here for a few years if I think the long term goal makes sense to do so.

 

[DonkeyClub]

Alec if someone said that to me I would have told them where to go- cheeky mare!!! The economy may be bad but There is no way on earth you can buy a decent nice 4yr old in Ireland for £1500 .. And I know that you only have well bred horses Alec! And if they want to buy something that they don't know the history off& has prob already been run into the ground hunting then that is their choice. Think it's always better to buy direct from the breeder where you know their history and background.
I think the horse market is bad but not so bad that decent 4 yr olds aren't selling well.

 

[JC1]

I have a couple of 2 yr olds that I'd like to sell and had interest from one of our RC members - until she asked the price! There seems to be no comprehension of the work and cost involved in producing nicely brought up quality individuals. It amazes me when people are surprised that their bargain basement youngster goes wrong! Or it turns out to have more issues than a newspaper!

 

[Louise12]

Has anyone else reached the point of "Enough's enough"?

Yes. All the time. We sit up at nights waiting for mares to foal, put up with all the slopping around in mud and rain, absorb the disappointments and the losses, sell at a loss, and then when our pride and joy wins, no-one mentions the breeder unless it happens to be a fabulously famous and wealthy person already, to whom none of the above applies anyway. Sigh.

 

[tristar]

alec, what the lady buyer said about availability of other similar horses, regardless of price, says it it all for me, there are too many horses bred with the same breeding, or type, for me breeding is about only the the best and the secret ingredient of something a little different, and only breeding for the very good rider who demands the qualities of a horse with very special abilities that show up even before it is ridden.

breeding for the amateur or average rider market, is never going to be a financial success because most of those riders are only looking for horses with a low level criterea and only probably only spending a limited amount in the first place.

 

[JDee]

We made the realization that Alec has come too 16 years ago!!!
We took the trouble to find two good mares, did all the right research on the stallions we used, spent money on looking after them properly, spent time handling and training them correctly from day one but mostly only just broke even - if we were lucky
The best prices tend to come at the point that they're winning in the ring - but by then you've spent even more cash so likely wont make a huge profit.

 

[cptrayes]

I have wanted to breed my own for more than a decade but every time I do the sums I can buy a ridden four year old for much less, and also guarantee it's not marked up, wonky, nasty tempered, a horrible colour, too big, too small etc etc

One day I'll buy that Clydesdale mare though ......

 

[bramblesmum]

I have been breeding for the last three years on a small scale and have given up now. My stallion and best three mares are staying with me and will come to livery and start riding all being well.

I bred for the showing and family market but with no big name behind me have struggled to attain good prices. I sold my two yr old new forest x filly (nicely coloured and put together) for 250 only consolation is its a lovely home but it is this and the loss of our best foal bred this year that is seeing us withdraw I will keep him entire and may breed for myself again in the future but not for a few years

 

[christine48]

Prices at the moment seem ridiculously low. I think in the past there has been too much indiscriminate breeding from average mares etc. we then ended up with a glut of average horses, coupled with a recession resulting in a drop in prices. It doesn't help when on the continent the breeding industry is on a far bigger scale and the cost of keeping a horse is so much less. You can buy a nice Dutch horse for 4 to 5K, yet here it would cost almost that to get a quality foal on the ground.
Hopefully if we reduce the number of horses bred prices will eventually increase.

 

[christine48]

Also at the moment, supply exceeds demand and its a buyer's market. If you can sell it as a foal you can just about break even. The sad thing is you then keep them until they are 3 or 4, worm, vaccinate, farrier trims etc, possibly back them and still people only want to pay peanuts!

 

[Clodagh]

I think you all worry too much. I went to pick up an eBay purchase today and found about 40+ horses running together in a bare paddock surrounded by saggy barbed wire and stock netting. Two mares had foaled there last night, in the field with the stallion and several geldings present. They were standardbreds and apprently make good money - so come on, cut some corners!

On the other hand, for what Piper owes me I suspect I could buy a seriously nice all rounder, well schooled and ready to rock and roll.

 

[zigzag]

In 1992. we bred a TB mare to a TB Stallion (Buzzard's Bay) , with the cost of transporting the mare to stud, the keep, the vet fees and getting her in foal, her coming home and the cost of keeping her, taking her back to the stud, 4 weeks before she was due, the keep, the cost of foaling down, vet fees and then transport home, the foal cost £4750 ( It would have been cheaper to buy a foal in the sales lol) :east the foal won a race and had numerous placings ( She was bloody unlucky some days)

 

[Eothain]

We're horse breeders. We're in this for the long haul. To make sure the next generation is better than the last.
This isn't the place to make a quick buck.

We're gamblers with an addiction!

 

[DonkeyClub]

I think when it works well, it is a good way of breeding yourself a super horse that you wouldn't otherwise be able to afford. But you have to use a mare that produces good foals and a top class stallion that likewise stamps his stock very well. There are Too many mares and stallions out there that may or may not have performed to the highest levels but can only produce average/ bad horses.

 

[HBM1]

I think we need to found Breeders Anonymous.

 

[sport horse]

Could the dramatic drop in standards in lower level competitions be anything to do with the quality of the horses that people are buying?

When I first came into the sport and joined my Riding Club in the 1960's, it was necessary to canter to do a dressage test. Nowadays you only need to walk and trot.
Show jumping, the RC Novice started at 2'9" (90cm) and the Open was 3'6" (1.10) In 2013 even BS has classes starting at 70cm (2'3")!!

Also, most people used to keep their horses at livery yards, DIY was not an option, so there was huge guidance and ongoing input from professional yard owners to help inexperienced owners continue to improve. It does appear today that once basic skills have been achieved further knowledge is gained from books, lecture demos and other novice horse owners etc rather than a real horseman/woman on the ground.

I breed for my own use but I do have to sell one or two that are not good enough for the top level that we require. They have all gone to knowledgeable homes, with people who compete at a lower level and are prepared to pay a fair price for a well bred/produced horse. Each horse is still with the same people and they have had huge fun.

To those who buy a cheap horse from Ireland, racing etc. good luck, but why not be honest and add up the real cost of your fuel to/from your yard, the hours of lessons, the food, farrier, vet etc and realise that even after all that, it is not suitable for the job you require and is therefore not cheap?!

 

[Buddy'sMum]

I agree that it's ridiculous how many people buy entirely unsuitable horses (or worse, ponies for their young children) after they/the child has only had a few lessons and opt to keep them at home or on diy livery. I'm currently watching in horror as a couple of novice owners who keep their very badly mannered and barely broken horses in a field next to my yard stagger from one disaster to the next. My advice of 'get thee to a livery yard/riding school' has so far fallen on deaf ears :-(

But not sure it's fair to say there's been a dramatic drop in standards in lower level competition - if the changes have been made to encourage riders who might not otherwise have competed to participate, how can that be a bad thing for our sport?

 

[elijahasgal]

I have one breeding mare, one riding mare who had an unexpected homebred foal, and a couple youngsters about up for sale!

Mare has produced some crackers, the only reason that I have keept breeding.....gave away another mare that had a totally nuts foal, didnt want to risk another!!

That said I am a C@@@ saleswoman!!!

My oldest baby is in training, paid for by a trade of another youngster!!! mind they think she could be a superstar!!!
My hope is for her to do well, and be able to sell the other youngsters off her back!!! should sell her, but really dont want to as she so special, as in who she is not ability....so rare to have a mare with it all!!

 

[volatis]

I spotted breeding for the reasons Alec mentioned - without my own land, the sales prices didn't cover the outlays, especially if any steep vets bills were incurred along the way. I am very proud of the horses I bred, and still spend a lot of time expanding my knowledge of bloodlines and breeding.

 

[Maesfen]

But not sure it's fair to say there's been a dramatic drop in standards in lower level competition - if the changes have been made to encourage riders who might not otherwise have competed to participate, how can that be a bad thing for our sport?

This is a recurring thought for me and I'm afraid I do think it's a bad thing that things have been so dumbed down although it's excellent for the coffers of each discipline. Years ago you had to practise and strive to be good enough to enter affiliated competition which meant you had a very good grounding and a fair bit of experience by the time you did so. Nowadays you can affiliate at stupidly small heights (I'm of the era when Foxhunter was entry level) or very low level dressage such as we would consider the minimum before turning away after breaking in. The trouble for me is so may don't have the ambition to go any further, I know someone that only does walk and trot classes, her horse is ten and she's had it years, no wish at all to go further; the same can be said for some jumpers/eventers. Being able to affiliate so early at such paltry entry levels, they are not being encouraged to improve themselves, I really do think there should be a time or entry limit on how long you can stay at one level without going to the next. Some will say but they're happy which is fair enough and it only becomes awkward for others when they clog up the system with entries which results in classes being balloted which very often means the rider that is trying to improve/step up is penalised when they are the ones that deserves the entry place. Sorry, bit of a soap box issue for me, lol!

Back to breeding. There was a time when if you bred a nice foal you'd get a nice return or at least cover all of your expenses for that mare and foal but that doesn't seem to be the case now unless you are into breeding dressage ones which do seem to have held their value better whereas those of us breeding the decent quality all rounder, good enough to show, hunt, jump etc have fallen by the wayside a fair bit. I'm so glad my two mares returned empty for next year and I'm trying to have a clearout, just a yearling and two year old ID crosses to go plus Spark's full brother Merlin. I'm not holding my breath that they'll go before they're ready for breaking though!

 

[Avonbrook]

I'm so glad my two mares returned empty for next year and I'm trying to have a clearout, just a yearling and two year old ID crosses to go plus Spark's full brother Merlin. I'm not holding my breath that they'll go before they're ready for breaking though!

Hmmm... I was thinking very much the same thing. Big mare had gone in with Marcus Aurelius at the end of May, mainly to stop her from demolishing all the fences on the place (her spinal injury sustained as a foal means that dismantling is more her bag than jumping), scanned in foal (probably) at 17 days but so many and varied cysts that was rescanned after 30 days - empty. Old mare'd had the chance of a swap covering with Marcus for a lovely stallion and much interest in potential progeny, so we went for it at the end of July (which has always actually been her best time). Missed coming into season so scanned, empty.

So like Maesfen, I have been perfectly reconciled to no foals next year, and for all the same reasons.

Looked at big mare today... Diary says 3/12 on Saturday and definite signs of thickening around the "waist" (bearing in mind that she is a multiple mum and not "neat".) And Marcus says that she is not just bitchy, she's pregnant mare bitchy... We'll see but I know where my money is (and I shall be offering the vet double or quits if he wants to scan again!).

Old mare is smirking gently and I'm not convinced about her either! They missed her daughter Penny 4 years ago...

I wonder how many pregnancies are PG'd away to try again? This is two different partners from a big equine practice, I'm not in any way saying that the vets are no good - I think they are. I just wonder about the reliance placed on the technique?