british breeding banging its head against a brick wall!!!

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trelawnyhorses1

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today went to a local tack shop and some of the local studs had already put up their flyers, but there was a new 1so i fort worth a read ... n GUESS WHAT!!! Another two stallions standing at stud without being graded or licensed!!! british breeding will never imporve when these types of stallions are allowed to stand!!!
 
Well said! Having a horse good enough to stand as a stallion is important. Just because they do a good dressage test or can jump does not make them stallion material, it makes them good sport horses but that does not make them a good type in terms of genetics. Stallion grading and testing is vital to keep these genetic standards up . It is costly to send a horse through these tests with the appropriate breed society.
That is why properly graded stallions who are also bound by the lisencing bodies [they ensure the stallions have the proper tests for sexually transmitted diseases for the appropriate breeding season] COST. So when mare owners go looking for stallions they also should look fo quality and all the appropriate health checks are done. This may mean therefore that the cheepest isnt the best!!!
 
Frankly, as a mare owner, mine won't be going to any stallion not fully graded by some body I deem worthy of grading stallions. I can't afford to breed foals with no resale value as I plan on selling them before they are proven in any other way. So hopefully market forces will eventually weed this practice out. But yes, some people will always be happy putting their old mare in foal to something cheap and (not necessarily) cheerful....
 
Bit puzzled as to a "licenced" stallion? In all the years we have owned ours (both were first assessed by a vet for The British Database then Weatherby's) we have never been asked for a licence?
The stallions for weatherbys are blood typed, dna'd and vetted to ensure they are considered good enough specimens to breed.
I did enquire re taking our current stallion to a grading but was told politely that one Society won't accept anything that weaves (that would cut out a lot of the top TB stallions then) and the other felt a 16 year old would have a tough time passing a grading.
We had ours re-done by Weatherbys after the Database failed, at a cost of £421 as they refused to use the information they already had from the Database.
Although I take your point re some inspection should be compulsory, grading is a voluntary thing and looking at performance of the offspring and the bloodlines is far more important to many people.
The biggest problem is not everyone wants a world class horse so why should we only breed those?
That sort of horse needs world class riders and how many people on this forum can say they could honestly cope with a well bred horse kept in a DIy with little turnout and access to only poor hacking?
We have to breed for everyone, from the coloured cobs to the top level competition horses, and if you restrict breeding only to those approved by their breed societies where will all the Heinz variety horses come from?
Sorry but it's long been a bugbear of mine that we need good all round riding club type horses for the many one horse owners, not everyone wantsto jump six feet or win badminton...
Now what gets me mad is driving three miles up the road across Dartmoor...
Hundreds of small runty badly shaped mares running out with even worse runty coloured or spotted stallions. They produce plenty of foals for meat, many totally unwanted due to their small size or poor conformation.
Now that does want sorting....!
 
Now I've never owned a stallion in the UK, so your post has totally confused me HH - I assumed that it was exactly the same in the UK as it is here? Any stallion of breeding must have a Licence to serve mares otherwise the offspring cannot be registered with the appropriate society.

I had always assumed you were breeding Sporthorses? Hence I assumed your stallions had been graded and were Licenced?

Going back to the original post - I have to say I do agree. I think if all/most British breeders don't get their act together then this "Buy British" excitement could fizzle away
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and Britain will again start to lose out to the European breeders. Just my take on it.
 
The only time I would use an ungraded stallion is if it is too young and under developed to be presented for grading. Obviously the price would reflect this, and a respectable stud would hopefully have taken into consideration grading potential before standing a young stallion.

I think that if people dont care because they are just breeding for fun and want to produce a happy hack/ rc horse, then they should just buy a young horse, rather than adding to the huge number of horses that are already around that would be perfectly suited to the job!
 
I have to say I was under the impression that a stallion standing at public stud had to be reg with Deffra, therefore licenced to stand. And though I also agree that a graded stallion should be first choice did you not read last week how these gradings differ so? I have in the past seen the BWB gradings & last Sept watched part of the Trakhner gradings. I feel that some societies standards are higher. What I think is more important is that the mares are also inspected. I agree with the view expressed in last weeks H&H, a stallion should be limited in his 1st few years, thereby ensuring that they are more discerning in the types of mares they accept to him. We are behind with the breeding of dressage horses, but I think we hold our own in eventing. As for us general horse owners, it still helps us if people are breeding horses with good confirmation & temperments. A horses temperment can be marred by bad confirmation, because he is uncomfortable. Though I have seen horses with awful confirmation still doing ok as ridden/competition horses they would never stand up to consistant work. They cope because they are only ridden a few times a week. A temperment can also be altered by bad handling. I still think that we need to improve on our breeding no matter what, a horse that does not make the grade in one area can still make someone happy lower down the ranks if he/she has the temperment. Perhaps riders should look at improving their riding so they can cope with the new improved horses of the future.
 
Quite agree with Henryhorn. Of course we want to breed some world class horses but we also want to breed some good level headed sensible alrounders suitable for the vast majority of us.I look at dogs and how excessive inbreeding has affected them and think that we want a gene pool of good tough cross breeds to go back to from time to time as well.
 
Yes, but they would still have been bred by someone.

I do agree with the point that I think you're making, that is too many people breed from their mare for sentimental reasons and then choose the local stallion, because he's cheap, with little regard as to whether he'd suit the mare or what they are trying to breed.
However, HH has a point in that there is a market for good RC/PC types and someone needs to breed them!

I also agree with the state of the wild Dartmoor ponies. Having seen them last summer, I was astounded how many bore no resemblence to the Dartmoor pony as I know it. I didn't think that coloured ponies were registerable in the studbook yet I saw several coloured mares, foals and stallions out there.
 
I think this is a difficult subject.
I stand two TB stallions which i have decided against putting forward for grading with SHB.
To be honest there is little point as we wouldnt use there covering certificates anyway.
My stallions are fully registered with there governing body which is Weatherbys who issue all of there covering certificates and neccesary documents.
SHB covering certs would be no good for the high percentage of race mares that we cover and the same would apply to a majority of TB stallions.
SHB will give a relitively easy grading if stallions have a proven record as has mine but i just dont see what i would gain from it.
My horses stock sell well for good money in fact i have a queue already for the one foal of his due this year.
It is a differant story with the warmbloods as i wouldnt ever use a stallion that cant produce a covering certificate as you then dont have any proven breeding.
I believe that all horses should have breeding documents.
I have never used anything other than a TB stallion but that is the type of horse that i breed and i can honestly say that in years gone by more often than not the TB stallions we have used have not been graded with SHB the graded stallions we looked at just havnt ticked the right boxes.
Most in those days were 16.3 + and i never wanted anything that big.
A lot of them i have to say just didnt have the temperaments i required
So we shopped around to find what we wanted.
More often than not with very good results.
So graded or not for me the most inportant thing is that you are able to register your foal with recognised breeding papers.
Last year we covered a KWPN mare with my little TB stallion and the resulting foal has been issed with full KWPN pink papers.
So we obviously are not having any problems cross registering foals with any society.
 
That's why I was puzzled because no-one has ever invited me to buy a licence!
Our stallions were both Inspected by The British Dtaabase when it was running, and then by Weatherbys' so we have covering certificates from W's. Of course any progeny can be registered with them.
Although our bloodlines have now gone more towards competition horses for many years we aimed to produce something few people did, a nice all round type horse who would go out to a local show , virtually always come home with a rosette, go hunting sensibly and be sane enough to hack in heavy traffic whilst being kept by their owner, so good to clip. catch handle etc.
When I had a bigger livery yard and horse finding agency I witnessed literally dozens of people buying big powerful horses that they simply couldn't handle.
The warmbloods are incredibly trainable but some need riders who give clear signals and can be the one in charge, the old mix of ID's produced pretty forgiving horses who tolerated idiots to coin a phrase, these warmbloods just took advantage!
So we set about breeding midle of the road horses. funnily enough of all those first bred only one has changed from it's original owners, so the proof of the pudding is there..
Now because our daughter loves eventing, we've had to change our lines, and the belgian x TB we stand has a dam who competed at badminton and Burghley for several years running, and the sire is a High graded belgian warmblood.
I get an uneasy feeling when it comes to some of the stallion gradings I'm afraid, when you put 60 stallions forward and only 20 odd pass, what happens to the failed ones? I feel they are correct in wanting to breed world class horses but as I said earlier, how many people have you seen be overhorsed? Loads I bet!
Call us stubborn if you will but I breed for the average competition rider, who wants to maybe do Pre-Novice and some Aff. dressage but still hack happily.
There are lots of people breeding world class horses, when we started the aim was to reproduce our old stallion, naively we thought that was possible, it wasn't.
The sort of jumping ability that has top riders waving blank cheques in your face at shows is very rare. But his progeny have all gone on to have useful happy lives, to me that's enough proof to breed from him (plus as his bloodline produced Cruising./Seacrest etc he was unlikely to breed duds..)
I think there is room for all sorts of breeders, and would have no problem with having to be licenced, I just don't want all of us attempting to breed world class stuff no-one can ride!
 
HH - there is one studbook that would help to produce 'average' riding horses and cobs suitable for the average rider - as well as producing top class competition animals - and that is the Sports Pony Studbook Society - SPSS

They grade their stallions and accept stallions up to 15.2 (despite the 'pony' in their name)

Graded stallions are 'licensed' to cover for a year or forever depending on their quality - those licensed for 1 or 2 years do not continue to have licenses unless their progeny are shown to be good.

In this terminology 'license' means that the appropriate studbook/breed society is prepared to accept covering certificates for that particular year for that specific stallion and register the progeny as of that breed/type.

This 'license' is nothing to do with gov. regs or DEFRA

TB breeding IS different but when at TB stallion crosses the line from breeding solely for racing and starts to breed also for sports horse Xbreds then it should get graded by SH-GB the same as any warmblood or native breed or whatever.
 
I'd also add that it is as important to put forward the mares for grading as the stallions - and most people don't bother doing that

all 3 of my mares have passed their grading and my ex stallion was also licensed by is now gelded as I got tired of beating head against the brick wall of 'made in germany' competition and blinkered 'anti-bred in the UK' buyers
 
HH. I think you have a very good point about the need to breed good quality riding horses for 'Happy Hackers' and people who want to enjoy and have fun with horses, rather than everyone trying to bred performance horses, which can be a problem if not handled and trained correctly.

The problem I could see is that a stallion would have to be quite old before the progeny could be evaluated for rideability and by that time it would be too late as stock would be around. but I would like to see some of the studbooks address this when presented with a good type of horse. I do think a lot of problem horses are beacause of the way they are handled and treated rather than being an actual problem. They are like children, if they can get away with it they will.

I was once told a saying that 'a pretty horse is like a pretty woman, nowt good for any work', so always go for the ugly horse if you want a good work horse!!
 
sorry but plenty of horses correctly bred dont make the grade as competition horses, these horses are suitable for lower level competitions and happy hacking so y on earth would you breed a happy hacker??? i think it should be illegal to stand any stallion that has not gone through some sort of inspection and for horses over 5yrs they should all be graded. novice breeders think that these black market stallions are a bargain, but what do you get at the end of it a foal that has no proper paper work by a stallion that has not been recognised by a studbook. mare gradings defiantly need more publicising and i do feel that all of us who does stand stallions should offer incentives to mare owners whos mare is graded.
in yrs 2come there shouldnt be any horses with unknown breeding.

HH- I understand we are not all tryin 2breed world class horses, i have recently bred a colt for myself who i have chosen his lines carefully so he has a good temperemnt n is gd enuf jus to jump foxunters, but the standard of british horses as a whole needs 2improve
 
Quote "TB breeding IS different but when at TB stallion crosses the line from breeding solely for racing and starts to breed also for sports horse Xbreds then it should get graded by SH-GB the same as any warmblood or native breed or whatever. "

There are around 30 TB stallions graded with SHB and most are either pretty old or not my type.
I have chosen in the past to use proven race horse stallions and will again to get the results i require.
But i could hardly go to the likes of The national stud or Darley and say your stallion needs to be graded.
But i look to improve my stock so will choose the best avaliable.
If i dont like what is on offer what would you suggest bearing in mind i will by choice only breed to TB.
This is all hypothetical as i have my own stallions who generally cover a pretty high standard of mare but then again graded or not (they are TB) are also not cheap.
We used to grade all of our mares but after seeing some head stud mares some of which i know have conformational defects sort of makes it loose street cred with me really.
Along with some of the stallions alot of these organisations are so obsessed with performance that they will let hereditary defects through.
Very wrong in my mind.
By the way one of our best TB event sires Primitive rising was not ever even presented for grading and i dont see it as having devalued his stock.
Also think about this there are a number of SHB stallions that stand at cheap prices which encourages Joe Bloggs to breed dobbin down the field.
At least with something like our own stallion the mares we cover tend to be good sorts worth breeding from as people think alot harder about parting with £600.
 
I agree that stallions MUST be graded before being allowed to cover mares including owners own. As HH says not everyone wants a world champion and want a good riding horse and unfortuantly many stallion owners do not look at the suitabilty of a mare for the stallion but the pound notes. This therefore results in horses which are not suitable for the owners intentions, due to the performance attitude, and then quicly become 'problem' horses. It is always best to put your mare to the best stallion available, but you have to think ahead to what you will do once it is born and the training it needs before it has even been sat on.

Some good stallions have not been graded because they do not have the performance to compete at the top level or produce world class offspring, but would produce good quality all round riding horses, and I would rather these were graded than a lot of 'performance stallions' that are obviously not going to produce quality stock that is going to make the grade. My point is that we focus far too much on performance rather than the important things such as attitude and .bloodlines.

With regards to mares being graded. Again will this be judged on performance or bloodlines and the off spring? Broodmares are just that and at a young age you have to decide whether they are going to be used for breeding or performance. My top brood mare has never jumped but produces fantastic off spring, the only way she could ever be judged is on progeny. Why would I need to have incentives to use a stallion as I choose the best stallion for my mares bloodlines and tempremant rather than go to them because they are cheaper. I would say that out of all the stallions in this country there is only 5 or 6 I would consider

Your aim is to jump foxhunters with the horse you have bred many people would be happy to have a safe sensible horse they can ride.

I don't actually think it is the standard of horse we breed but the education and training of horse and riders that needs to be improved.
 
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