Brix scale and horses

Caol Ila

Caol Ila

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My OH nicked a grass sonic screwdriver (aka a refractometer) from work so we could test the sugar content of grass in the horses’ fields. He can do the maths to generate a number on the Brix scale, but finding out how that number relates to horses is not as easy as you think.

Google suggests that sheep and cattle farmers like numbers above 15. All we get is that anything less than 7 is bad if you’re a farmer. Our grass has been testing between 3 and 4.5. Does that mean it’s fairly low in sugar and not terrible for horses?

Did we get unlucky with a six-week draught, then a few days of heavy rain causing a massive sugar spike? And obviously a major genetic predisposition as well since she was the only horse at a yard of 90 horses to get laminitis during that big weather change. I was pissed off because I ride her 6 or more days per week and there are owners who hardly ride, whose horses are very overweight, and they got away with it. But she is sound now, and no rotation, so we dodged the bullet. Still…….

We will still be paranoid and limiting Hermosa’s grass turnout, now that we know what we know, but getting a better sense of what the Brix numbers mean for horses would be so useful.
 
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No idea of the answer to the actual question you’ve asked (I’m sure someone super geeky who does know will be along in a moment) but in true HHO style I shall proceed to wander off on several related tangents instead!

Might be worth looking into the laminitis app. (Deffo on the Apple App Store & I think Google Play as well for a few quid) Not totally infallible and won’t give you a specific answer for how safe your particular grass is but can give you an idea of if current weather conditions are making the grass more or less dangerous. I’ve not played with them properly as horse is now on a track system and you have to pay extra for them but I think it’s got some quite geeky extra features now that do make an effort to guesstimate some of the things you might be interested in (not specifically the Brix scale but potential effects of growing conditions on fructan & starch levels although I would think it’s a rather rough guesstimate)

Places like Forage Plus can also do pasture testing to give you an idea of sugar / starch (although that will vary a bit depending on when you cut your sample) and mineral levels if interested.

May also be worth trying to work out what grass types you have and if that could be improved (a cheap way to improve biodiversity would be to save hay seed from hay that has grass species that you’d like to have in it and spread it on your grazing at an appropriate whilst it’s resting (if your YO was on board with such things))
 
We've looked into the app, but decided it was a waste of money. OH is a scientist, and we are both mountaineers, so we understand weather and have enough degrees between us to work out how it effects grass. It does not seem like there is anything that app can do (for your specific field) that we can't do ourselves.

As far as taking a proactive role in pasture management ourselves goes, I think space/time travel will be invented before our yard owner takes my opinion into consideration. We'll probably have figured out the warp drive by then.

Remembering to grab grass when I'm in the field and get a range from the sonic grassometer is probably not useless.

Are there any independant people, untethered to a feed company, who will analyse your grass? I always think feed companies have an agenda and skin in the game, so I'm reluctant to go through the faff of sending samples to them.

My yard is the least worst place I can be, because the other ones in the area seem to demand 24/7 turnout in summer, and at least this one gives you options between day turnout, overnight turnout, or a few hours in-between, so there are always horses in to keep yours company.

I think we will have space/time travel before we have a track livery yard in northwest Glasgow. Unless I win the lottery or marry a Russian oligarch (my husband might not be keen on the latter).
 
I believe you can send samples direct to the lab that the companies use (will see if I can find an old report but it will be about 10 yrs old so I’m not guaranteeing they still exist/ offer this kind of testing.)

IME the worst thing FP will do is try to sell you a bespoke mineral balancer / tell you how to mix one from their products via the medium of giving you amounts in grams of their own products. Which you can absolutely either ignore completely or use the info on the strength of their products available on their website to work out how much you’d need of someone else’s (which is what I did as pony I had at the time of getting analysis done hated their formulation)

As for tracks they are popping up all over the shop including a few in Scotland but alas I don’t currently know of any near Glasgow (there’s a newish one somewhere near Cowdenbeath but don’t know of any nearer) but you never know what might happen in the course of a few years.
 
There's one in Dumfries and one near Motherwell, which I won't touch with a bargepole, but horse keeping around here is so antideluvian....like I said, I have more hope of a TARDIS materialising in my garden...

Right now, I gotta deal with the livery I have.

If we can work out the methodology used to test forage, OH has the skills and kit to do a lot of it for free.

But we are all being diverted. Working out how the Brix scale relates to horses would be a good start.
 
You can buy Brix meters that have already done the math for you online, see:

Brix Barometer – Soilmentor

soils.vidacycle.com soils.vidacycle.com

The people who run that company are lovely and if you email them your question about sugar levels in grasses and horses, if they can't answer they can probably suggest someone who can.

The ultimate expert is probably Nicole Masters, but not sure if you'd get a reply to an email.


This paper may also be of interest https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...35631606/foragepasturemanagementlaminitis.pdf
According to it, drought followed by sudden rain are prime conditions for send grass sugar levels through the roof.
 
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Having had EMS horses (and it might be worth getting yours tested), what I can say is that rain after sun is the absolute worst. I used to either keep in or muzzle for a couple of days in those conditions. The spike doesn’t last long and I am not even sure it is actually sugar, given the biology of the thing - sugar builds up in sun not rain, but growth is stimulated in those few days after rain.
 
I’m sorry to hear that Hermosa had laminitis @Caol Ila it’s no fun having a horse susceptible to this.

I’ve no idea about grass sugar testing but I keep an eye on her poos as an indicator of when the grass is too rich. They got softer this week and so her time out is now only a couple of hours, always with a muzzle.
 
It's also worth remembering that horses need a level of sugar to promote fermentation in the hindgut. You are right about the flush of grass after rain though, that encourages the herd to absolutely stuff themselves, so the taste/smell of the grass must change. The ideal scenario is to keep the insulin in balance, and prevent spikes, but it can be difficult if your pasture is good, and trickle feeding goes out of the window. Hope Hermosa has bounced back, and it was a temporary blip. Might be worth testing for Cushings/EMS in the autumn.
 
Could you brix test a sample then send off the same grass for analysis to "calibrate" the brix test? Maybe do that a couple of times at a dry spell, a grass flush, a drenched field.

A grass analysis company will be able to give you the detailed horse-relevant info, then you use those as a comparison for your ongoing Brix tests.

This sounds like fun to me honestly, it's tickling my brain and I want you to do it and post about it.
 
Caol Ila said:
My OH nicked a grass sonic screwdriver (aka a refractometer) from work so we could test the sugar content of grass in the horses’ fields. He can do the maths to generate a number on the Brix scale, but finding out how that number relates to horses is not as easy as you think.

Google suggests that sheep and cattle farmers like numbers above 15. All we get is that anything less than 7 is bad if you’re a farmer. Our grass has been testing between 3 and 4.5. Does that mean it’s fairly low in sugar and not terrible for horses?

Did we get unlucky with a six-week draught, then a few days of heavy rain causing a massive sugar spike? And obviously a major genetic predisposition as well since she was the only horse at a yard of 90 horses to get laminitis during that big weather change. I was pissed off because I ride her 6 or more days per week and there are owners who hardly ride, whose horses are very overweight, and they got away with it. But she is sound now, and no rotation, so we dodged the bullet. Still…….

We will still be paranoid and limiting Hermosa’s grass turnout, now that we know what we know, but getting a better sense of what the Brix numbers mean for horses would be so useful.
Click to expand...
NB - Goldie'smum is just thinking aloud here...

So information on desirable sugar levels in hay are available - you need less than 10% of dry matter.
All you need is the average dry matter of your grass. Weigh some, dry it in a microwave or borrow a dehydrator, weigh again. ❓🤷‍♀️
 
Caol Ila said:
My OH nicked a grass sonic screwdriver (aka a refractometer) from work so we could test the sugar content of grass in the horses’ fields. He can do the maths to generate a number on the Brix scale, but finding out how that number relates to horses is not as easy as you think.

Google suggests that sheep and cattle farmers like numbers above 15. All we get is that anything less than 7 is bad if you’re a farmer. Our grass has been testing between 3 and 4.5. Does that mean it’s fairly low in sugar and not terrible for horses?

Did we get unlucky with a six-week draught, then a few days of heavy rain causing a massive sugar spike? And obviously a major genetic predisposition as well since she was the only horse at a yard of 90 horses to get laminitis during that big weather change. I was pissed off because I ride her 6 or more days per week and there are owners who hardly ride, whose horses are very overweight, and they got away with it. But she is sound now, and no rotation, so we dodged the bullet. Still…….

We will still be paranoid and limiting Hermosa’s grass turnout, now that we know what we know, but getting a better sense of what the Brix numbers mean for horses would be so useful.
Click to expand...
Definitely, particularly if that grass had been eaten right down during the drought period, it would be as stressed as anything, positively desperate to grow! You can easily smell and almost see the grass response to these conditions yourself, never mind greedy animals. If grass is growing fast, you have a potential horse-problem, even with non-starchy types.
We’re always testing soils, grass, silage, grass crop and growth, and honestly I think you’d be as well keeping a close eye on the grass available in your horse’s fields, on the weather forecast and on your own front lawn for a clearer indication of grass surge. If your lawn’s kept mown and a comparable location to the farm, can be very revealing about growth! Stabling on dry hay and ridden for a couple of days, while the other animals get back on top of it, is probably the safest.
Very sorry about your mare, now likely to be even more susceptible, and these weather swings likely to become even more confirmed in future. Glad to hear she’s back in business, anyway, good luck.
 
Yeah, we had obviously had her tested for EMS. We knew what the answer would be. When the vet came back with the results, I was like, 'no sh17t.' Still can't believe she was the only horse in a yard of 90 to get it during that big weather fluctuation, but a lot of owners who think their horses are susceptable were already using muzzles. I wasn't. i am now.

Some of those websites were helpful...cheers. Especially the paper. That was interesting.

He tested our refractometer on other things, like orange juice, and the results he got were in line with what we should get. Our garden, for what it's worth, is 4, but we are seven miles away from the yard. The instructions on how to test hay are very useful. We'll do that.

Currently she is out with the herd, wearing a muzzle, for two-ish hours, and I am riding her, a lot. She gets soaked hay in the stable. I wish she could have more turnout, but this seems to be working, so.... I have little hope that she will go back to overnight turnout this summer, but maybe next year if I can make her as lean as a greyhound in the winter. She is pretty good about keeping her muzzle on.
 
I find 8 am til 430pm long enough out until the grass hardens in July and protein drops then they go out out at night, but it's only on short grass with hay soaked feeds

I use the hay feed to test how hungry they are and to give fibre up and downing the amount

I am very ruthless about their weight,

I've just been out and heard painful wickers of I am starving , which is impossible having noshed all morning. But then it could have a wicker of i love you mom, but i doubt it

It's hard going watching the weather for the horses but just becomes a habit in time and worth the effort
 
If there’s others on the yard with susceptible horses then may be worth having a chat about what they’ve found works / doesn’t work. I know all horses are individuals (believe me I’ve owned the “canary” who reacts waaaaay before anything else is even thinking about it whilst being somewhere not entirely ideal) but if there’s a group of 3 or 4 with similar problems that are finding similar things keep them on the level that’s worth taking into account a little.
 
I'm also using steglatro alongside usual measures - she's retired from ridden work so I've only got diet & muzzle.

I'm going to buy a gadget and have a play. Mine clocked up insulin of 180 in Jan on a well eaten down field so I'd like to know if the grass in there is extra spicy or a rogue hay bale or if it was "something" else. No frost either.
 
OH says his work is getting a mass spectrometer in July, and he might try to figure out how to make it tell you all the components of our grass.

His PhD project was making a mass spec do things no one had ever done with a mass spec before, so he can probably pull it off if it’s possible.
 
maya2008 said:
Having had EMS horses (and it might be worth getting yours tested), what I can say is that rain after sun is the absolute worst. I used to either keep in or muzzle for a couple of days in those conditions. The spike doesn’t last long and I am not even sure it is actually sugar, given the biology of the thing - sugar builds up in sun not rain, but growth is stimulated in those few days after rain.
Click to expand...

Even my non-EMS horses are a bloated mess after a day of sun followed by a day of rain showers. This year Summer seems really bad for extreme yo-yos.
 
Miss_Millie said:
Even my non-EMS horses are a bloated mess after a day of sun followed by a day of rain showers. This year Summer seems really bad for extreme yo-yos.
Click to expand...
It’s been more normal in Glasgow this month. Some wet days, some dry days, some days with both.

The six week draught was weird for us.
 
What's a brix scale? I've never heard of it before (along with lots of other words!) and with a reversed EMS horse, I'm curious what it is & if/how it could help?
 
It measures sugars in grasses/crops but on its own numerical scale. Still not sure how exactly that directly corresponds to NSCs. It’s mainly used in farming, where people want high readings because that’s apparently better for cattle and crops. We want the opposite. It seems that a low number on the Brix scale (between 2 and 3) is better for horses, whereas cattle farmers prefer it to be above 12.

If you can use the sonic grassometer, you can get data about the sugars of your grass from day to day, which you obviously can’t do if sending samples to a feed company,
 
And of course I have asked other owners how they manage it. However, only two horses at the yard, to my knowledge, have actual EMS diagnoses, and they were both on box rest when we got the big draught-to-rain weather swing at the start of June. Horse 1 was on box rest for laminitis, which she got in February or thereabouts, and had rotation and the whole nine yards, and Horse 2 was on box rest for something totally unrelated. Horse 2 has now left the yard; his owner was told by the vet that he may not be rideable again, and they moved because our yard is an expensive place for a lawn ornament.

Other owners who have had laminitic episodes in the past (but no EMS diagnosis, as far as I know, and maybe as far as they know), manage with grazing muzzles and being very anal about soaking and restricting hay when the horse is in the stable.

On another note, we tested some of the alcoholic beverages we have around the flat. Not because we're planning on getting the horse pished, but there's actually a f&8ck ton of information out there about the Brix scale relates to booze, so it's a useful way to gain some confidence in your use of the refractometer and a sense of what the scale means.
 
Caol Ila said:
And of course I have asked other owners how they manage it. However, only two horses at the yard, to my knowledge, have actual EMS diagnoses, and they were both on box rest when we got the big draught-to-rain weather swing at the start of June. Horse 1 was on box rest for laminitis, which she got in February or thereabouts, and had rotation and the whole nine yards, and Horse 2 was on box rest for something totally unrelated. Horse 2 has now left the yard; his owner was told by the vet that he may not be rideable again, and they moved because our yard is an expensive place for a lawn ornament.

Other owners who have had laminitic episodes in the past (but no EMS diagnosis, as far as I know, and maybe as far as they know), manage with grazing muzzles and being very anal about soaking and restricting hay when the horse is in the stable.

On another note, we tested some of the alcoholic beverages we have around the flat. Not because we're planning on getting the horse pished, but there's actually a f&8ck ton of information out there about the Brix scale relates to booze, so it's a useful way to gain some confidence in your use of the refractometer and a sense of what the scale means.
Click to expand...
‘Founderguard’?
Not used it for 20+ years (and needed our vet to sign the import licences then), but popular in Australia as the preventative for digestive-upset laminitis (too much corn, rich grass etc).
Was for a homebred mare who had a ‘brush’ with laminitis, was probably what today would be called EMS, was both ridden & driven very regularly. We thought a lot about her, wouldn’t countenance keeping her separately (I’d have preferred to put her down, she so loved mooching out with her family), so tried her on Founderguard. To all intents it worked very well, obviously her exercise and diet were maintained, but meant she could carry on grazing with the others, too.
Active ingredient is virginiamycin, as you’re both scientists - should be able to find any more recent data on this, perhaps more recent reviews.
 
Exasperated said:
‘Founderguard’?
Not used it for 20+ years (and needed our vet to sign the import licences then), but popular in Australia as the preventative for digestive-upset laminitis (too much corn, rich grass etc).
Was for a homebred mare who had a ‘brush’ with laminitis, was probably what today would be called EMS, was both ridden & driven very regularly. We thought a lot about her, wouldn’t countenance keeping her separately (I’d have preferred to put her down, she so loved mooching out with her family), so tried her on Founderguard. To all intents it worked very well, obviously her exercise and diet were maintained, but meant she could carry on grazing with the others, too.
Active ingredient is virginiamycin, as you’re both scientists - should be able to find any more recent data on this, perhaps more recent reviews.
Click to expand...

Well, my husband is a scientist. I have a PhD history, so.....

After a quick Google, this is what I found:

Founderguard has been banned in the UK since 2014, since virginiamycin is an antibiotic, and it posed a risk to increased development of antimicrobial resistence. They believed that its efficacy at treating laminitis/EMS wasn't proven enough to justify those risks.

Virginiamycin for Equine Use to be Banned in U.K.

Virginiamycin is the active ingredient in a veterinary medicine used to prevent laminitis in horses.
thehorse.com thehorse.com

Looks like you can still get it in Australia. LOL. I guess they don't give a damn about antibiotic resistance.
 
Caol Ila said:
Well, my husband is a scientist. I have a PhD history, so.....

After a quick Google, this is what I found:

Founderguard has been banned in the UK since 2014, since virginiamycin is an antibiotic, and it posed a risk to increased development of antimicrobial resistence. They believed that its efficacy at treating laminitis/EMS wasn't proven enough to justify those risks.

Virginiamycin for Equine Use to be Banned in U.K.

Virginiamycin is the active ingredient in a veterinary medicine used to prevent laminitis in horses.
thehorse.com thehorse.com

Looks like you can still get it in Australia. LOL. I guess they don't give a damn about antibiotic resistance.
Click to expand...
Now unavailable? Well that’s no help. Vets have absolutely been the ones merrily dispensing and advocating wormers, antibiotics, etc, etc, at considerable expense and possible environmental detriment, for decades.
It always makes me smile when reading about ‘irresponsible use by horse owners and farmers’ - where does one think they got these drugs from? On whose advice?!
Back then, also had to sign horse out as one of the licence conditions. Our (then) vet had Australian experience, felt there was more drought / surge grass issue in Oz, and worth trying for our mare, for which we were very grateful.
 
Have done the home testing as in one of the articles though only done one bit of hay as a test. Very hard to get any liquid out but OH managed to get two blobs. It read 9% which presumably is high for horses. I soak the hay and wash it off but any thoughts.
 
Thanks for the explanation upthread :) I'd very briefly once wondered how they worked out the percentage on the laminitis app for hours by hour updates ... now I know, I guess!
 
Nrft so pinch of salt (sugar!?) with this needed but

1 brix scale degree is 1% simple sugars.

Nsc is more complex sugars ('carbs') that don't dissolve in water. Which a refractometer won't detect
For laminitic sorts the target is 5% or less combined starch (complex sugars) and simple.

So yours is in an ok range if it was both. Though it will vary throughout the day and on different days according to weather patterns. But it's not showing the carbs as well so care would be needed.
It's not exact but I have the laminitis app which helps guide decisions on in or out during the day or which field etc.
 
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