broken foot

C

cassy1993

New User
Joined
30 July 2010
Messages
7
Visit site
hi my pony has broken his foot and im relly worried cos the vet says she has to stay in her stable and have a special shoe put on but my trimmer says thats cruel and shoes are cruel cos they cut off the blood. she says the shoe will make it worse and she should be turned out to let it heal on its own, but she is really lame. Im so worried i dont know what to do, i really like my trimmer and i dont want to make her foot worse. will a special shoe and box rest help her more? how much will that cost?
 
Hi, when you say she has a broken foot, do you mean a portion of her hoof has broken off, or the bone inside her foot has broken?

If its the former then whether or not she will need a shoe largely depends on the severity. Without a little more information or photos its hard to say, but personally, I'd take the advise from the proffesional that you paid to give it, ie the vet.

If the actual bone is broken then for your trimmer to dismiss the advice of a vet is down right wrong.
 
Although i am a trimmer myself, i agree with the above poster. Shoes are not cruel at all. Unnessesary in a lot or cases, but sometimes nessesary.

But i agree with your trimmer that shoes will restrict blood flow to the foot. Its a tricky one, if there is a broken bone in the foot, if the horse moves about too much it could damage it more. But movement is also nessesary to improve circulation and help with healing.
Again, its very hard to say what the best course of action is for your horse without knowing what actually is the problem.
have you ever heard of equicast? http://www.equicast.co.uk/home.html
its very similar to what is used for human casts. It dries pretty solid around the foot, helping to stabilise it.
Maybe talk to your vet and trimmer about it.

As for the shoes, if the bone is damaged, the shoe will help to stabilise the foot and bone, so maybe its an option to start with. Maybe in a month or so there will be some healing and the shoes can come off.
I hope that your trimmer isnt one who is against many forms of conventional treatments. I think those type of treatment, ie shoes and certain drugs all have a place so stay open minded.
Hopefully someone who has had experience with this will be able to give you more helpfull advise.
 
yes its the bone in the foot it has broken, but i phoned my trimmer and we are gonna leave it to heel naturaly as it will heel quicker and stronger, and i dont want to use shoes cos shes never had them and my trimmer said it will ruin her foot even more. thanks for the help.
 
Without getting into a barefoot vs shod debate, I just have to say that ignoring your vets advise is rather reckless. You paid them for it in the first place!

A broken bone is not something a trimmer or a farrier has the right to treat without the guidance of a vet.

I suggest you look into the credentials of your trimmer and make your mind up as to whether they have the nessesary education, experiance, qualifications and insurance to treat pedal bone fractures in a manner that goes against the advice of a veterinarian.
 
You need to take the advice of your professional vet who has spent many many years studying, training and taking exams in order to have a qualified opinion on how best to treat all manner of problems.
I am no expert at all but think about it logically...equate it to you having a broken leg or major bone break in your foot...would you be happy standing on it all day...do you really think it will heal with full weight bearing down on it...do you think you could carry on your duties day in day out with a broken leg or foot?
If you think that having a horse wandering about on a broken bone, hobbling and in pain is going to help it heal better and quicker, then sorry to be blunt, but you are quite mad!
This horse needs it foot to be stabilised in order to prevent further complications such as movement of the bone, laminitis complications etc etc...having a shoe on it will allow the foot to be held stable whilst healing takes place and having the horse confined to a small area will prevent it moving around on it too much and creating further trauma. Your horse needs to heal quietly and carefully and I would be taking your vets advice every day of the week! Good luck and hope your horse gets better.
 
cassy1993

I have no idea where your trimmer gets the information from that the foot will heal quicker and stronger if left untreated.

Any fracture that is not treated correctly will NEVER heal properly. You will end up with a pony in pain with a deformed foot. it is like leaving a bad cut to heal on its own which will become infected.

Any fracture needs to be stabilized, (Set and plastered too many human bones in the past).

Like others have said, to ignore the advice of a vet is just unthinkable.

I'm sorry to be so blunt but the credentials of your trimmer needs to be checked.
 
LOL - because vets are never wrong! Read the thread on here about the navicular case that was written off by the vet and is now sound and back in work after going barefoot.

I'm assuming you are talking about the pedal bone? In what way will the shoe help?Ask your vet to explain in full detail exactly why he thinks it's the only way back to full health. Ask him about the function of the pedal bone and the amount of 'weight' that it carries. In one of the other posts in this thread the poster seems to think that the weight of the horse is carried on the pedal bone and therefore having a broken pedal bone is like walking around on a broken leg. Simply not true - the pedal bone does not function in that way... the weight of the horse is taken by the whole structure of the foot, hoof wall, sole, digital cushion, frog etc. So horses can cope quite well with a fractured pedal bone as it is not the weight bearing bone people think it is!

Yes your pony needs rest but I also don't agree with box rest - rest the injury not the patient. If you can't trust your pony to be sensible in the field then a small fenced off area to keep him moving but not too fast is the best idea. What bones need to heal is blood supply - so you need as much circulation in the foot as possible. And that means no shoe to compromise circulation and gentle movement to get the blood pumping.

I would agree with your trimmer - sticking a shoe on will not help and will only hinder healing. Rest your pony but don't box rest it and wait for nature to do it's thing.
 
My horse had a suspected broken pedal bone - it wasn't when X rayed - and the vet said the treatment was a circle shoe and 6 months box rest. Even though I agree with barefoot I would be very relucant to go against the vet's advice in such circumstances.
 
ORANGEHORSE said:
My horse had a suspected broken pedal bone - it wasn't when X rayed - and the vet said the treatment was a circle shoe and 6 months box rest. Even though I agree with barefoot I would be very relucant to go against the vet's advice in such circumstances.
Click to expand...

But did your vet tell you why the circle shoe was necessary? IME many vets just don't know enough about how the hoof works and when you ask them why they recommend something they can't actually explain why - it's just what they've been told to do. Most vet's still believe the pedal bone rotates in severe cases of lami when in fact it is the foot growing away from the bone that causes the so called 'rotation' of the bone. The bone is always exactly where it should be - attached to the P2! Grow back a healthy foot and bingo - the pedal bone suddenly looks normal again.
 
It does depend what part of the Pedal bone is fractured.

mrdarcy--- A fractured pedal bone will heal, Navicular is managed not cured.quote " LOL - because vets are never wrong! Read the thread on here about the navicular case that was written off by the vet and is now sound and back in work after going barefoot."
That does not mean that a broken bone will heal without support.

Mrdarcy are you a vet or a barefoot trimmer or maybe a farrier if not how do you know
 
Last edited:
paulineh said:
It does depend what part of the Pedal bone is fractured.

mrdarcy--- A fractured pedal bone will heal, Navicular is managed not cured.quote " LOL - because vets are never wrong! Read the thread on here about the navicular case that was written off by the vet and is now sound and back in work after going barefoot."
That does not mean that a broken bone will heal without support.
Click to expand...

But navicular is cured... read some of the threads. It is no longer considered an incurable condition - navic is being cured again and again.

The pedal bone is already supported by the hoof wall, the sole and frog - put a shoe on and you remove the natural support from the sole and frog, increase peripheral loading (weight bearing is totally taken by the shoe and therefore the hoof wall) putting more strain on the internal structures of the foot and thereby more strain on the pedal bone. When you look at it like that putting a shoe on doesn't sound like a great idea does it?
 
Hi, apologies for this being my first post! I've been lurking since the Parelli/Catwalk thread was linked on another forum, and I just had to register to post on this thread.

I'm a barefoot trimmer, but I'm not fanatical about it - some horses can't go barefoot for a variety of reasons, and that's the case, I'll say so!

In this instance, the thing that concerns me is that the OP's trimmer is advising her to do the exact opposite of what the vet is saying. It is NOT the trimmer's place to do this - a trimmer (or farrier or whatever) should work alongside the vet and owner to find the right solution for both horse and owner.

One of my clients' horses broke his pedal bone. He is barefoot, the owner didn't want to put shoes on him, she, I and the vet had a discussion, and instead he had a cast put on his foot. He was box rested for a few weeks and then was allowed out in a small pen area.

The reason for the shoe or cast is to stabilise the foot - the natural function of the foot is to flex and move, it's what it is supposed to do and it's why shoeing long term isn't such a great idea, shoes restrict the normal function of the foot. However this is important if the pedal bone is broken, the foot NEEDS to be immobilised for a while to prevent further damage. Box rest is recommended to stop the horse damaging it further by excessive movement.

I think the best analogy I have, is that I broke my middle finger a few weeks ago. It was painful but useable. I could have left it and continued to use it as before, but using and bending it could well have prevented it healing properly, and may have damaged it further. So I had it strapped to my ring finger, immobilised it for a while, and now I'm using it again, but gently. Long term, I wouldn't have gone around with my two fingers strapped together, and when I took the strapping off both fingers were stiff and needed careful management to function again, but short term it was the best thing for my finger.

So after all that rambling, my thoughts are that if the OP really doesn't want to put shoes on her horse she should talk to her vet about alternatives, such as a cast, and if she's still not happy maybe get a second opinion from another vet, but in the long run, it really isn't down to her trimmer to tell her what's best for an injury like this.

Thank you for reading :)
 
At last someone with a balanced outlook.^^:) Jenna500

I think the OP needs to talk to her vet urgently. Ideally the trimmer also needs to talk to the vet as most farriers would in this situation prior to shoeing.

It is so nice to hear a trimmer say not everything can be managed barefoot. I have 2 unshod and would like to keep them that way. I have also had a horse that was so crippled without shoes I would not have considered taking them off even when that was the last and final option - it would have been cruel - he actually could not step forward at all without fronts.

OP I am not expert but have seen a few fractured pedal bones in the past. All made an excellent recovery to full work with box rest and remedial shoeing.
Good luck.
 
I have an analogy of my own.

This time last year my foot started hurting. I ignored it for a while until it swelled up and I couldn't walk without a limp. I went to A&E, they x-rayed it. I'd fractured my third metatarsal - in other words I'd broken my toe! So did the doctor put my foot in a cast? Did he give me a pair of crutches and tell me to put no weight on the foot for six weeks? Nope - he said with these type of injuries there is nothing he could do. He advised me to take it as easy as I could i.e. no marathon running! and take pain killers if I wanted but other than that I just had to wait until it healed up. And despite me carrying on walking around on it (all be with a bit of a limp) it did heal up just fine.

I also have a bit of a thing about horses that just 'can't go barefoot'. If your horse is one of these that just can't cope then it's almost certain he is extremely sugar sensitive and quite possibily insulin resistent. Now you can ignore all of this, stick shoes back on and have a horse that you can work but it does not solve the underlying cause. He is still insulin resistent. The diet he is being fed is still causing him damage. You might not see it because he has shoes on and looks sound but it's still there. I'd much rather look to solving the health issue than covering it up by putting shoes on - for some horses this means removing them from grass for the rest of their lives. It's not going to be easy unless you have the right facilities but it is a health issue that needs addressing, not ignoring. IMO anyway!
 
I'm sorry mrdarcy but there are horses that can't go barefoot, for a wide variety of reasons not only related to metabolism.

I won't go into the many other reasons because that's not the point of the thread. I simply wanted to point out that the trimmer should be working alongside the vet not against them.
 
omg im relly worried now that im doing the wrong thing. i cant speak to my vet until monday and my pony is out in the field on her own. shes not running round cos shes relly lame and i spoke to my trimmer again thats fine cos shes only out on her own so she wont run around on it. ill speak to my vet again behind my trimmers back on monday. mr darcey are you a trimmer? my trimmer never explaned it like you did.
 
cassy1993 said:
omg im relly worried now that im doing the wrong thing. i cant speak to my vet until monday and my pony is out in the field on her own. shes not running round cos shes relly lame and i spoke to my trimmer again thats fine cos shes only out on her own so she wont run around on it. ill speak to my vet again behind my trimmers back on monday. mr darcey are you a trimmer? my trimmer never explaned it like you did.
Click to expand...

Yes I am - if you want to PM me then please do and I'll help if I can.
 
Jenna500 said:
I'm sorry mrdarcy but there are horses that can't go barefoot, for a wide variety of reasons not only related to metabolism.

I won't go into the many other reasons because that's not the point of the thread. I simply wanted to point out that the trimmer should be working alongside the vet not against them.
Click to expand...

We'll have to disagree on that one though I'd be interested in your other examples - PM me if you prefer.

I do agree that a trimmer should work alongside a vet if possible but IME so many vets are extremely anti-barefoot and really don't understand what we are doing, despite the growing amount of evidence showing how beneficial barefoot is, that sometimes you have to stick to what you know is true, even if the vet is advising the opposite. As trimmers of course we don't diagnose but we do give advice once diagnosis is made and if that is different to what the vet is saying then it's up to the owner to decide who to listen to. Not an ideal situation i agree but until vets get better educated about barefoot and the functionality of the hoof that's the way things will be.
 
mr darcy- You appear to be very knowledgeable and generous with your advise. Could you clarify for the OP, and others that might be wondering, a few questions which may help horse owners decide when its appropriate to take a trimmers advise over a vets.

1)What is legally required for a person to set themselves up as a trimmer?
2)What minimum qualification is nessesary for someone to legally trim others horses in return for payment?
3)What regulations are in place to control unskilled and uneducated persons trimming?
4)What level of public liability and indemnity insurance is required of a trimmer?
5)In what situations would it be appropriate for a trimmer to offer medical and nutritional advice to a horse owner?
6)What course of action might a horse owner take if the advice given by a trimmer turns out to be wrong or harnful to the animal?

Thanks in advance
 
MattFranks said:
mr darcy- You appear to be very knowledgeable and generous with your advise. Could you clarify for the OP, and others that might be wondering, a few questions which may help horse owners decide when its appropriate to take a trimmers advise over a vets.

1)What is legally required for a person to set themselves up as a trimmer?
2)What minimum qualification is nessesary for someone to legally trim others horses in return for payment?
3)What regulations are in place to control unskilled and uneducated persons trimming?
4)What level of public liability and indemnity insurance is required of a trimmer?
5)In what situations would it be appropriate for a trimmer to offer medical and nutritional advice to a horse owner?
6)What course of action might a horse owner take if the advice given by a trimmer turns out to be wrong or harnful to the animal?

Thanks in advance
Click to expand...

Having read your other posts I think you already know the answers to all those questions and I would agree that it is not an ideal situation that in this country anyone can set themselves up as a trimmer, with absolutely no training whatsoever. It makes things harder for those of us who take it very seriously, are fully insured, have spent time and money training and qualifiying, are members of organisations that any of our clients can turn to and make a complaint if they are not happy, are members of organisations that stipulate you must sign an oath and take trimming and horse welfare extremely seriously. Which is way anyone wanting to use a trimmer should do their research, find out what training that person has had, what organisation they are a member of, check that they are insured and I would also advise that any professional trimmer should be more than happy for a potential new client to watch them trim and see examples of their work. The examples of my work are very visible as I am out competing many weekends on my lot but equally I'm always more than happy for people to come and visit my horses at home and look at their feet, see me trim, ask me any questions they like.

As I am sure you are also aware LANTRA has now published National Occupational Standards for barefoot trimmers. If you compare these NOS's to those published for farriers they are far more detailed and extensive and require a far higher standard of knowledge. As yet none of the barefoot trimming organisations have become awarding bodies for LANTRA - but this is not due to unwillingness, rather the vast number of bureaucratic hoops you have to jump through to be allowed to become an awarding body. The organisation I am a member of is working towards becoming an awarding body as we speak - I should know, I'm involved in making this happen! But our training program is already well up to and beyond the standards set by LANTRA.

As to nutrional and medical advice we are bound by the same rules as farriers, physiotherapists, nutrionists, equine dentists etc etc.

Hope that helps a little!
 
Last edited:
With regards to the last question (What course of action might a horse owner take if the advice given by a trimmer turns out to be wrong or harnful to the animal?)

If a complaint is made to that particular trimmers governing body, what disciplinary action can be taken to prevent that person trimming other animals?
What prevents that person from carrying on trimming without being a member of said governing body?

And more specific to this thread, just for the record, do you think it is appropriate for a trimmer to contradict the advice given by a fully registered, insured, qualified and regulated vet?
 
mrdarcy said:
As to nutrional and medical advice we are bound by the same rules as farriers, physiotherapists, nutrionists, equine dentists etc etc.

Hope that helps a little!
Click to expand...

As far as I'm aware, and please correct me if I'm wrong, I as a farrier am not controlled by any rules regarding such advise, however as a professional I have learnt to respect certain professional boundries, and leave the giving of such advice to those qualified to give it. IME respecting these boundries leads to improved professional relationships, based on mutual respect.
 
MattFranks said:
With regards to the last question (What course of action might a horse owner take if the advice given by a trimmer turns out to be wrong or harnful to the animal?)

If a complaint is made to that particular trimmers governing body, what disciplinary action can be taken to prevent that person trimming other animals?
What prevents that person from carrying on trimming without being a member of said governing body?

And more specific to this thread, just for the record, do you think it is appropriate for a trimmer to contradict the advice given by a fully registered, insured, qualified and regulated vet?
Click to expand...

I can only speak for my organisation but if one of my clients complained to them about me then they would do a full and proper investigation and if I was found to have contravened the rules of the organisation (including causing harm to the horse) then I would be expelled from the organisation and would no longer be able to use their name or qualification status. I could carry on trimming of course but if someone were to research me they would know I'd formerly been part of the organisation and now wasn't and that should ring alarm bells. I certainly have no intention of that ever happening but it should be reassuring to all parties that such a framework exists. I can't speak for the other barefoot organisations as I am not aware of their disciplinary processes.

I do think it is appropriate for trimmers to give advice, if that contradicts a vet then that's unfortunate. Farriers do it too from time to time. But the fact is vets are not always right and the training they get on horses hooves is simply too limited and in many cases not up to date. Look at the navicular thread - many examples of horses that would have been PTS if the vets advice had been taken. These horses are now back in work in the main. I think it would have been wrong for the trimmer not to have given their opinion in those circumstances because it's meant horses still being alive and functioning as opposed to being PTS. Can you really argue against that? I have had a vet tell me that no horse in the UK can work barefoot because they all get white line disease because of our damp climate. But if he actually knew what he was talking about he'd know that WLD was a symptom of laminitis first and not caused, just exacerbated by wet conditions. A healthy foot never gets WLD even if stood 24/7 in a bog. I should know - I have five horses who all live out 24/7 in less than ideal conditions i.e. wet fields in the winter, and not one got WLD. How would that particular vet explain that I wonder?
 
MattFranks said:
As far as I'm aware, and please correct me if I'm wrong, I as a farrier am not controlled by any rules regarding such advise, however as a professional I have learnt to respect certain professional boundries, and leave the giving of such advice to those qualified to give it. IME respecting these boundries leads to improved professional relationships, based on mutual respect.
Click to expand...

The rule I refer to is that of diagnosing medical conditions. Only qualified vets are allowed to do that. As a farrier you will be well educated on diet and nutrition as it is such a huge part of having healthy feet - you can't have healthy feet without a healthy diet... do you not think that it is part of the service you give to your clients that if you see them feeding their horse full of molasses and turning them out onto lush green fields you should say something and give them advice?
 
Before I got Beau he suffer a fracture pedal bone which was treated by box rest for some time I cant rember how long for and was fittd with a egg bar shoe. Once he was on the road to getting better he was allowed out in a small paddock then slowing walkd out and bought back into work when he came sound. This is a whille ago now so can't rember all of it. He did have normal shoe's back on later on then he went short on off he had xrays which show up Pedal Ossetistis sp?? This was nearly 5 year's ago now he is fitted back in the egg bar shoe's and will be for the rest of his life.

I would go with what your vet say's. Yes ask Q's nothing wrong with that. Hope he have a speding recover. Dont think it's the end of the road just take time to heal.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top