BS rules on lame horses?

C

colcob

Member
Joined
10 March 2002
Messages
20
Visit site
We watched the GP tonight at Addingrton where there was a horse obviously lame behind, in fact it was uncomfortable to watch it warm up then compete its round with faults as it was so obviously crippled behind. I know if it were a BD show the horse would be stopped in the warm up and certainly not allowed up the centre line. I wondered why everyone there chose to ignore it and turn a blind eye, the rider could not trot it and was off its back before it exited at the arena leading it out. I have never seem such a lame horse in a competition ring and found it rather shocking it was allowed to compete.
BD are hot on this but I have no idea about BS. Maybe their rules are if its only 7/10th lame which it was but can still jump 1m 50 (god knows how) then its not a problem?
 
Last edited:
if the judge is satisfied it is lame they should pull it up and eliminate the combination.

I have seen it done BUT some horses with mechanical lameness but not actually in pain still successfully showjump. I remember one from a few years back which had broken its pelvis as a youngster, it recovered but forever more had a mechanically incorrect gait to the point the owner/rider had to carry a letter from their (very well respected) vets to clarify the horse was in no pain as otherwise it was constantly pulled up.

I'm not saying this is the case here and if properly lame the judge should have without doubt pulled up the horse.
 
I will be honest with you I was there last night,I watched every round and I did not notice a lame horse and usually pick them up quick.Most of them had jumped over the previous days and I am sure if there was a problem somebody will have picked up on it.
I find it is better if you have concerns about a horses well being it is better to bring it up to an official and get your mind put at rest at the time. You may have seen something nobody else has and you just bring it to their attention its not a big deal .As you are aware the warm up is a busy place and lets face it there is no official put there just looking for lame horses.
Just slightly off topic ,I am not a SJ fan but I must say I found the jump off exciting with several lesser known riders in the shakeup you never know I may be turned!!
 
I agree with the OP. Wasn't there watching what she is discussing but have seen a very well known horse by a very well known rider jumping a Puissance at Solihull and the horse looked very lame.

Still think its stupid how horses are not allowed bute in order to make them comfortable. It is hardly a 'sports enhancing' drug, its not going to make the horse jump higher, or canter faster. I remember when someone I know very well used to compete BSJA and they were meant to notify BSJA that they were taking propranalol (beta blocker) as this was considered a sports enhancing drug. She was taking it for constant migraines and she never told them! Apparently they had a calming affect. They certainly didn't for her, and she had to go and see a hypnosist for cognitive therapy for her competition nerves in the end!!!
 
Yes I think I know a lame horse when I see one! (I am a dressage judge so am particularly used to seeing lame horses if I am honest) we watched the warm up and it was crippled, in the ring you would not know she walked in (even in walk it was not right) straight into canter jumped it, pulled up, canter, few steps walk, halt, hopped off and led it through the exit! Having seen it lame it the trot it was then apparent it was not right in canter or walk but would not have stood out unless you were looking for it. I would guess it was 6/10ths lame in the warm up which she rode like a lunatic, never seen anything like it.
In fact it was shameful that she was allowed to ride a horse so obvioulsy crippled, I would be bloody emabarrassed, but hey, she rides a GP so obviously its fine. Does me me angry, a lame horse is a lame horse whatever the level its competing.
It wasnt stringhalt.
 
colcob said:
Yes I think I know a lame horse when I see one! (I am a dressage judge so am particularly used to seeing lame horses if I am honest) we watched the warm up and it was crippled, in the ring you would not know she walked in (even in walk it was not right) straight into canter jumped it, pulled up, canter, few steps walk, halt, hopped off and led it through the exit! Having seen it lame it the trot it was then apparent it was not right in canter or walk but would not have stood out unless you were looking for it. I would guess it was 6/10ths lame in the warm up which she rode like a lunatic, never seen anything like it.
In fact it was shameful that she was allowed to ride a horse so obvioulsy crippled, I would be bloody emabarrassed, but hey, she rides a GP so obviously its fine. Does me me angry, a lame horse is a lame horse whatever the level its competing.
It wasnt stringhalt.
Click to expand...
My point was WHY did you not say anything! Its easy to spout on here about things but this is best dealt with at the time do you not agree!
 
applecart14 said:
Still think its stupid how horses are not allowed bute in order to make them comfortable. It is hardly a 'sports enhancing' drug, its not going to make the horse jump higher, or canter faster.
Click to expand...

No but it may well let them keep going and risk further injury :confused: :( It is an anti-inflammatory analgesic and IMO should absolutely be banned in competition. I don't think it is fair to mask pain in order to make your horse continue :rolleyes:

Have a read of Ginny Leng's autobiography (I'm sure it's hers) about when she exercises a horse who (unbeknown to her) had been given bute. It has a catastrophic breakdown and is pts. Her argument about the use of bute is very persuasive.
 
So it wasn't obvious in canter? if so the judges probably won't risk pulling up a 'maybe' lame horse especially as some horses do have unusual movements and even more so in a high money GP. There are not always stewards present in the warmup even if there should be and they do rely on others reporting things i.e. lame horses or warm up fences too high etc as they cannot have eyes in the back of their heads and on every horse when in the correct place.

Next time I suggest a quiet word in the steward/secretary's ear so it can be dealt with :)
 
rhino said:
No but it may well let them keep going and risk further injury :confused: :( It is an anti-inflammatory analgesic and IMO should absolutely be banned in competition. I don't think it is fair to mask pain in order to make your horse continue :rolleyes:

Have a read of Ginny Leng's autobiography (I'm sure it's hers) about when she exercises a horse who (unbeknown to her) had been given bute. It has a catastrophic breakdown and is pts. Her argument about the use of bute is very persuasive.
Click to expand...

Completely agree. Bute in competition for a slightly bruised sole maybe does have a use but bute for a slight tendon strain etc is just asking for horses to breakdown and as its impossible to draw the line for use the safest line to draw is that none is allowed at all.
 
Santa_Claus said:
Completely agree. Bute in competition for a slightly bruised sole maybe does have a use but bute for a slight tendon strain etc is just asking for horses to breakdown and as its impossible to draw the line for use the safest line to draw is that none is allowed at all.
Click to expand...

Some people just tend to assume that pain is always a negative thing, when in fact it is the body's way of stopping use/movement and preventing further injury. I suppose I am also more used to drugtesting/banned substances as I grew up being competitive in another sport.
 
rhino said:
No but it may well let them keep going and risk further injury :confused: :( It is an anti-inflammatory analgesic and IMO should absolutely be banned in competition. I don't think it is fair to mask pain in order to make your horse continue :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

For many years, I have found it incomprehensible that bute alternatives are legal for this very reason. No form of analgesic ("natural" or otherwise) should be allowed in competition.
 
popsdosh said:
My point was WHY did you not say anything! Its easy to spout on here about things but this is best dealt with at the time do you not agree!
Click to expand...

I was intimidated to say anything!! I am not a ring steward, or welfare officer for BS I am a spectator watching with my kids who were also shocked. I have questioned it on here because I have no idea what the welfare rules are BS. It was obviously ignored by all the others and officials to whom it would have been very obvious.

I am not 'spouting' I am asking the question, Why was it acceptable to all the officials there yesterday to let this horse jump? I can imagine a whole load of politcial reasons why and that to be jumping a GP track with it was not a one off event, just something that the others were used to seeing and not concerned enough to deal with?

Seems the competitor is happy to ride a lame horse from the posts on here.

Next time, if there is one, hope not, I will say something to the steward, I was close to asking the rider but in that environment especially the warm up it was difficult to take the courage to do it.
 
Last edited:
JFTD said:
For many years, I have found it incomprehensible that bute alternatives are legal for this very reason. No form of analgesic ("natural" or otherwise) should be allowed in competition.
Click to expand...

Which proven, testable NSAIDs are legal under banned or even controlled substance rules? If you mean some of the herbal products, they are legal because there is no proof they work, although there certainly are banned herbal products, it's just that many people don't consider that possible!

If the question is intent then any unproven calmers would have to be on the list. Imagine the uproar! ;)

Re the horse in question, didn't see so can't comment but generally, I woudn't confront the rider. Presumably if they know the horse is lame a spectator pointing it out isn't going to make any difference. A quiet word with officials is probably the way to go, so they can observe and follow it up.

It's tricky with jumping horses though, as if the horse appears competent in the competition ring, there isn't much the judge can do, given the rules. Re the collecting ring, has anyone ever seen a dressage horse pulled up for unevenness while warming up? I've only ever seen horses eliminated in the competition ring. Obviously the FEI addresses this with a jog. Also, of course, you start opening the door to the discussion of "soundness". Even in dressage, I've only seen horses pulled up for uneveness, never because a judge suspected a horse is say, sore in its back or bilaterally lame. These rules work on the assumption no one would wilfully compete an unsound horse . . . .
 
Its a matter of opinion. It depends what's wrong with the horse. If its got arthritic changes that aren't going to be catastrophic if it is continued to be ridden then surely it is in the horses best interests.
 
colcob said:
the rider could not trot it and was off its back before it exited at the arena leading it out.
Click to expand...

Slightly off the point, but BS rules say a horse should be ridden out of the arena, so if it was led out should have been eliminated.

As a BS judge if a horse comes into the ring and is obviously lame I wouldn't let it jump, although it is hard to tell in the few seconds before they start jumping, in which time the judges are making sure all the fences are up from the previous round and writing down the details of the horse about to jump, not watching it trot about. The judges do sometimes rely on being told that a horse is lame in the warm up and then they will either get an official to have a look or take extra notice when they come in the ring.
 
applecart14 said:
Its a matter of opinion. It depends what's wrong with the horse. If its got arthritic changes that aren't going to be catastrophic if it is continued to be ridden then surely it is in the horses best interests.
Click to expand...

There's a difference between gentle hacking/schooling (although personally I won't ride a horse on bute at any time) and competing affiliated, which this post is about! I fail to see how competing/continuing to compete BS or any other affiliated discipline is in the horse's interests? The riders interests, quite possibly :rolleyes:

You also risk masking a new injury or a degeneration of an existing one...
 
JFTD said:
For many years, I have found it incomprehensible that bute alternatives are legal for this very reason. No form of analgesic ("natural" or otherwise) should be allowed in competition.
Click to expand...

Thats total codswallop. There is nothing wrong with a natural form of bute for competition. What if your horse gets arthritis and the only way you can ride is to either bute it or give it a natural bute substitute. Half the horses in the country would be dead now if that were not the case. Not everyone wants a happy hacker, not every horse will stay sound for life. Not everyone can afford to have a yard full of retired horses either.

There should be freedom of choice. At the end of the day its what is best for the horse. Arthritic horses need to be kept in work it is proven beyond doubt that keeping mobile is the best thing for them otherwise they will seize. Just chucking them in the field doesn't cut the mustard. Making them comfortable in order to ride and compete is far better. But as I said before it has to be for the right reasons. Buting a lame horse in order to make it sound is wrong in all cases, buting a horse in order to keep it comfortable is completely the right thing to do in my humble opinion and the opinion of so many owners who are in this situation.
 
rhino said:
There's a difference between gentle hacking/schooling (although personally I won't ride a horse on bute at any time) and competing affiliated, which this post is about! I fail to see how competing/continuing to compete BS or any other affiliated discipline is in the horse's interests? The riders interests, quite possibly :rolleyes:

You also risk masking a new injury or a degeneration of an existing one...
Click to expand...

Get real. You want to come into the real world. My vet said I should give my horse a sachet of bute everyday to keep him sound. Luckily I have not needed to do this as I have maintained his soundness with steroid injections (he has spavin) and corrective shoeing and I am considerate about which surfaces I ride on. A huge number of horses need to be maintained on small doses of bute in order for them to continue to be ridden. Its no different to me taking 8 co-codamol a day for my slipped disc or you taking paracetamol for a headache. I wasn't talking about gentle hacking/schooling and I wasn't referring to affiliated, but you saying I wouldn't ride a horse at any time on bute is very lucky for you that you have never been in that situation. Its all very well to be high and mighty but its quite different when you have a horse (your only horse) and he needs it. Bet you would think a bit differently then and change your principals accordingly.
 
applecart14 said:
Get real. You want to come into the real world. you saying I wouldn't ride a horse at any time on bute is very lucky for you that you have never been in that situation. Its all very well to be high and mighty but its quite different when you have a horse (your only horse) and he needs it. Bet you would think a bit differently then and change your principals accordingly.
Click to expand...

I find your attitude extremely unpleasant. You have no idea about me or my horse (yes, my ONLY horse who due to injury will NEVER be ridden again :rolleyes:). So I'm afraid you have very much 'lost' your bet :mad: :rolleyes:. Don't make assumptions you have no way of backing up, it makes you look ridiculous!

It is fine for me to say that I wouldn't ride a horse on bute. As I said, personally MY opinion.

I do totally believe bute should be banned in competition, for the reasons I've outlined already and because I think it would be impossible for an affiliated body to keep track of who is allowed medication and who isn't.. How would they know you were giving bute because your vet told you to or because you knew he wasn't right and wanted to compete anyway?
 
Just to say the round finished up at the end you exit and she pretty much cantered to the exit and jumpoed off and I saw her lead it through the doors out, I only came and watched the round to believe it was being jumped round and took notice of how careful she was on entrance and exit.
Same in the warm up, very bizarre, she looked like the devils horseman getting off it as soon as it slowed from canter so it wasn't made to trot, bute wasnt going to affect this horse it was beyond that.
 
rhino said:
I find your attitude extremely unpleasant. You have no idea about me or my horse (yes, my ONLY horse who due to injury will NEVER be ridden again :rolleyes:). So I'm afraid you have very much 'lost' your bet :mad: :rolleyes:. Don't make assumptions you have no way of backing up, it makes you look ridiculous!

It is fine for me to say that I wouldn't ride a horse on bute. As I said, personally MY opinion.

I do totally believe bute should be banned in competition, for the reasons I've outlined already and because I think it would be impossible for an affiliated body to keep track of who is allowed medication and who isn't.. How would they know you were giving bute because your vet told you to or because you knew he wasn't right and wanted to compete anyway?
Click to expand...

I am sorry you find my attitude unpleasant but I am sick of people that rant about giving horses bute and how wrong it is. I think they are totally out of order and unpleasant and it is up to each individual not to be made to feel like they are a bad owner if they choose to give it or not. Like I said half the horses in the country are on bute, the only reason that people keep quiet about it is because they get abused when they mention it.

And for what its worth I am genuinely sorry about your horse.
 
Rhino - a valued member of the bar, funny, horny, dirty minded, caring, scheming (you know fine well what I'm talking about there!) we all love ya in the bar so get back to the the chair beside the fire before the karaoke starts again ;)
 
applecart14 said:
I am sorry you find my attitude unpleasant but I am sick of people that rant about giving horses bute and how wrong it is. I think they are totally out of order and unpleasant and it is up to each individual not to be made to feel like they are a bad owner if they choose to give it or not. Like I said half the horses in the country are on bute, the only reason that people keep quiet about it is because they get abused when they mention it.

And for what its worth I am genuinely sorry about your horse.
Click to expand...

Have to agree with you there, in her last year of BS, yes I did give my old mare a sachet of bute before each competition (she was 19 at the time and a little stiff) did not give it to cover lameness!! If I had to compare it, it would be similar to me taking paracetamol for my aches! Have since retired her from showjumping but she continues to hunt (bute-free)
 
pipsqueek said:
Have to agree with you there, in her last year of BS, yes I did give my old mare a sachet of bute before each competition (she was 19 at the time and a little stiff) did not give it to cover lameness!! If I had to compare it, it would be similar to me taking paracetamol for my aches! Have since retired her from showjumping but she continues to hunt (bute-free)
Click to expand...

i think that there is a little bit of a difference in giving 1 bute before a competition (say once a fortnight?) just to stop an oldie getting a little sore and having to give one every single day just so that the horse can be ridden. fair enough its good to keep them moving around but i think that competing/jumping etc needs to be questioned if the horse does need that much bute. the real worry is the liver damage that such medicating will do over time- in the same way that someone MIGHT take paracetamol every day for a bad back- but it doesn't mean that its good for you!
obviously a little off topic but there are lots of stories i've heard of top show jumpers jumping their horses when they know they aren't sound but masking it somehow and then the horses completely break down and we don't see them again... sure they aren't all like thi but wouldn't suprise me given the money that is at stake!
 
TarrSteps said:
Which proven, testable NSAIDs are legal under banned or even controlled substance rules? If you mean some of the herbal products, they are legal because there is no proof they work, although there certainly are banned herbal products, it's just that many people don't consider that possible!
Click to expand...

I can't say I've looked at the list of banned substances for BS, but there are bute alternatives which are allegedly competition legal. There is little proof that they work, but there is decent scientific speculation that some of them will have some effect, but because they're herbal, there is no regulation or requirement for them to be tested and thus there is no evidence they work and they remain competition legal. Frankly the very best scenario, in my mind, is that they are completely ineffectual.
 
applecart14 said:
Thats total codswallop nonsense :D. There is nothing wrong with a natural form of bute for competition. What if your horse gets arthritis and the only way you can ride is to either bute it or give it a natural bute substitut. Half the horses in the country would be dead now if that were not the case. Not everyone wants a happy hacker, not every horse will stay sound for life. Not everyone can afford to have a yard full of retired horses either.

There should be freedom of choice. At the end of the day its what is best for the horse Oh I couldn't agree more. Arthritic horses need to be kept in work it is proven beyond doubt that keeping mobile is the best thing for them otherwise they will seize. kept moving, not competed in affiliated competition - big difference between light hacking and jumping BS! Just chucking them in the field doesn't cut the mustard. Making them comfortable in order to ride yes and compete definitely not is far better. But as I said before it has to be for the right reasons. Buting a lame horse in order to make it sound is wrong in all cases, buting a horse in order to keep it comfortable to live, comfortable to wander about a field, comfortabe to hack and keep moving is completely the right thing to do in my humble opinion and the opinion of so many owners who are in this situation.
Click to expand...

Better dead that jumped into oblivion.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top