BTV/Rollkur...huh?

DanceswithCows

DanceswithCows

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OK, without wanting to get sucked into the Armas maelstrom, I wondered if someone could tell me why being 'BTV' is undesirable, as I'm wondering why peeps go to the extreme lengths of using rollkur to get heir heads practically ON their chests, if that's NOT what's wanted? :confused3:
 
I think the simple explanation is that BTV is usually an evasion that the horse uses to avoid working correctly, this is how Armas tends to go, they curl behind rather than move forward from leg to hand.
Rollkur is used in the belief is is making the horse work over it's back and gets submission in an extreme way.

The two differ in that BTV is usually the horse that makes the choice and once that is an easy option for them it can be a very hard habit to break, in dressage they are usually marked very low for any work that comes behind the vertical.
 
BTV: this can be a natural way of going for many horses (which should be corrected by the rider) or the result of bad training (e.g. horse trained by rider with strong hands) or horses can come BTV momentarily as they struggle with balance during a particular movement.. The back is hollow and concave, the hind legs are not engaged and trailing behind the horse, the neck is tense and contracted, the head is held in a high position (as if the horse was working in a collected outline) and the jaw is tucked close to the neck. When you look at the horse from the side the nose is behind the vertical rather than on or slightly in front of the vertical. The reins are often loose as there is no contact with the bit.

Hyperflexion: a training method which involves good engagement from the back end so that the hind legs come under the body, the back is convex and rounded, the neck is long but curled under so that the jaw is touching the chest.

Rollkur: hyperflexion achieved through force

On the forehand: the horse's weight is more on the front than the hind legs, the shoulder is heavy, the contact is heavy, the back is rounded but the horse is 'downhill'. The neck is curved and rounded, the head is tucked in but not as much as in BTV or hyperflexion/rollkur.

Basically unless you see the whole horse, ideally as it is moving rather than a photo in time you can't easily tell what is going on all the time.
 
be positive said:
in dressage they are usually marked very low for any work that comes behind the vertical.
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Unfortunately it's clear at both local level and watching high level dressage on the tv, that 'usually' is not true :( . It's my belief that this failure to punish btv work in competition, combined with marking down 'in front of the vertical', even in preliminary tests, has resulted in it becoming a very common training method.
 
cptrayes said:
Unfortunately it's clear at both local level and watching high level dressage on the tv, that 'usually' is not true :( . It's my belief that this failure to punish btv work in competition, combined with marking down 'in front of the vertical', even in preliminary tests, has resulted in it becoming a very common training method.
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I think I worded my post badly, they should be marked down for it, in my experience some judges do really pick on it, in a recent test which I have just had a look at thinking the mark that went with the comment "behind vertical" was low the horse got an 8 for that movement, it was only a dip behind in a good test that scored 80% but it should have been marked down as it was not "good" at that moment.
 
Btv is just the opposite of poking their nose - not correct but not terrible either ( you don't here people going on and on about poking noses like they do about btv) you will get both outlines at some point in dressage training as the horse learns to use him/herself properly. Rollkur is a forced hyperflexion used to increase use of back muscles and its the force that most sane people object too.
 
cptrayes said:
Unfortunately it's clear at both local level and watching high level dressage on the tv, that 'usually' is not true :( . It's my belief that this failure to punish btv work in competition, combined with marking down 'in front of the vertical', even in preliminary tests, has resulted in it becoming a very common training method.
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Your right, in fact for a prelim horse it is correct for the horse to be slightly above the vertical at times, but you still get hammered for it.
 
be positive said:
I think I worded my post badly, they should be marked down for it, in my experience some judges do really pick on it, in a recent test which I have just had a look at thinking the mark that went with the comment "behind vertical" was low the horse got an 8 for that movement, it was only a dip behind in a good test that scored 80% but it should have been marked down as it was not "good" at that moment.
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I agree with you :). My main gripe is the requirement to have the horse vertical in order to score highly in a preliminary. What's preliminary for if it's not for a less experienced outline?

My friend trains with a world ranking dressage family. They have her start every lesson lunging the horse overbent in very short side reins:(
 
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blitznbobs said:
Btv is just the opposite of poking their nose - not correct but not terrible either ( you don't here people going on and on about poking noses like they do about btv) you will get both outlines at some point in dressage training as the horse learns to use him/herself properly. Rollkur is a forced hyperflexion used to increase use of back muscles and its the force that most sane people object too.
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I don't agree


Poking nose is a thing to train a horse out of. BTV has become the established way to train a horse to release its back.
 
That's not true . It is used by a few people apparently but I've never seen any of the pros I've trained with over the years promoting it at all. I have had horses that are naturally btv when working and those that poke naturally - cobs and some wbs do it very easily... And I have never asked a horse to go btv as I don't like the disconnected feeling it gives ...
 
blitznbobs said:
That's not true . It is used by a few people apparently but I've never seen any of the pros I've trained with over the years promoting it at all. I have had horses that are naturally btv when working and those that poke naturally - cobs and some wbs do it very easily... And I have never asked a horse to go btv as I don't like the disconnected feeling it gives ...
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You only need to pop along and watch the warm up at Somerford's Premier League event to see how common btv warm up (not rollkur) is. I'm personally aware of two very high level trainers using it, and I personally believe what I have been told that there are many more.
 
blitznbobs said:
Btv is just the opposite of poking their nose - not correct but not terrible either ( you don't here people going on and on about poking noses like they do about btv) you will get both outlines at some point in dressage training as the horse learns to use him/herself properly.
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That is a really interesting point. Dr H's famous book actually goes on a lot more about the ill effects of BTV from the hollow back than hyperflection/rollkur but no one has picked up on that. Also if the hollow back is a problem any horse with its head in the air is by that argument at least as bad as BTV and not nearly as bad as rollkur but again you do not hear of anyone trying to ban this type of riding which is much much more prevant than rollkur.
 
cptrayes said:
You only need to pop along and watch the warm up at Somerford's Premier League event to see how common btv warm up (not rollkur) is. I'm personally aware of two very high level trainers using it, and I personally believe what I have been told that there are many more.
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Are you sure they are using it purposefully? If yes that is very weird, I've never heard of anyone advocating BTV as a training method, although of course there are many horses that are difficult to relax and stop being BTV and many riders who are not skilled enough to do it. What is the logic behind purposefully training in BTV?
 
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i would say most decent trainers promote varying degrees of BTV/LDR/deep in order to stretch and release certain muscles. it pretty well know and well used for the very reason of getting the horse to soften and work over the back and you can argue on here until you are blue in the face but the proof is in the pudding and because it does in fact work, people will carry on using it.

there are of course ways of doing, eg i would say Adelinde Cornellisen has on occasions done it in an aggressive way, where as Carl Hester does ride deep/LDR but in a much lighter softer way, but its the same thing at the end of the day.

realistically its not a huge problem at the lower levels, when 99% of competitors can actually bend the horse the right way or sit the trot, then they need to worry about degrees of BTV!

and of course BTV doesnt HAVE to mean behind the contact, the proof being able to pick them up IFV just as easily.
 
Prince33Sp4rkle said:
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i would say most decent trainers promote varying degrees of BTV/LDR/deep in order to stretch and release certain muscles. it pretty well know and well used for the very reason of getting the horse to soften and work over the back and you can argue on here until you are blue in the face but the proof is in the pudding and because it does in fact work, people will carry on using it.

there are of course ways of doing, eg i would say Adelinde Cornellisen has on occasions done it in an aggressive way, where as Carl Hester does ride deep/LDR but in a much lighter softer way, but its the same thing at the end of the day.

realistically its not a huge problem at the lower levels, when 99% of competitors can actually bend the horse the right way or sit the trot, then they need to worry about degrees of BTV!

and of course BTV doesnt HAVE to mean behind the contact, the proof being able to pick them up IFV just as easily.
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I am not sure we are talking about the same thing. I've never heard Adelinde or Anky advocate BTV, i.e. hollow back, neck high, jaw tucked in, as a training method. Nor is it identified as the same thing as hyperflexion in critical books like that of Dr H. Whatever the merits of hyperflexion/rollkur, I've never heard of anyone advocating BTV as a training method.

Given the definition of BTV I gave above it is not possible to use it to soften and work through the back as it involves a hollow back, but perhaps you don't agree with my understanding of it?
 
Here are some photos as I think they make things easier:

This horse is on the forehand:
http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=ho...12&start=20&ndsp=25&ved=1t:429,r:26,s:0,i:163

This horse is behind the vertical:
http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=ho...49&start=20&ndsp=25&ved=1t:429,r:27,s:0,i:166

This horse is in hyperflexion (I have no idea how to distinguish hyperflexion from rollkur):

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=ho...ndsp=25&ved=1t:429,r:22,s:0,i:151&tx=78&ty=89

This horse is working long and low (slightly on the shoulder for my liking but there you go):

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=ho...dsp=25&ved=1t:429,r:21,s:0,i:148&tx=117&ty=90
 
sorry, ive obviously (partially) misunderstood.

i dont see anyone intentionally warming up with a peacock neck, ie high and tight and BTV but i see people warming up LDR (which is also putting the nose BTV) ALL the time, every show, every level.

i also think the long and low horse in the pics is compltely running along on its head and dont think the first pic is really that bad, just a little round in the neck, but there you go.

but i stand by my comment that at the lower levels (prelim to elem) the riders generally exhibit FAR greater problems than neck positionig, for instance when you cannot tell if someone is trying to sit, or rise......i think the horses back suffers far more than if its a little high or a little BTV.

you only have to look around the net, read posts, read blogs etc to see that there are plenty of people with at best dubious, and at worst dangerous, training theories, who think they have reinvented the wheel and have devised a superior training method, and even worse, are trying to teach others to follow that method! now that is really scarey, far more so than something winning a prelim with its nose in a bit too much!
 
For me the definition of BTV is purely the angle of the front of the face in relation to the horses body. Nothing more than that. So for the photos that BooBoos links, the second one down as an example of BTV - yes it is BTV but more importantly IMO it is just an incorrect way of going all over!

So a horse could be BTV in a number of different scenarios of training - some of which would be a more appropriate way of going for that horse at that particular point in time, than others.

Training a horse is a long journey and it isn't going to be copy book correct at all points in that journey, you need to be able to see the bigger picture and ultimate goal.

I would agree that at all levels you will see varying degrees of BTV. Especially in warm ups and sometimes (okay fairly frequently!) in tests too. I agree BTV needs to be commented on by judges and marks to refelct that - but it is not the only 'fault' for want of a better word that a horse can demonstrate - so it has to be put into context. An active, rhythmical, obedient and accurate test that is slightly behind the vertical could easily score reasonably highly ... of course it would score higher if on the vertical ;)

I do think that a certain degree of LDR/Deep/BTV does have it's use in the warm up and stretching of a horse. I suppose you have to be very clear in your own mind about how, why and when you do this and that it is done with a forwards and allowing hand rather than via force.
 
Oh yes I completely agree with both of you that other outlines include the nose not being on the vertical. Riding long and low (just long and low stretchy nothing to do with hyperflexion/rollkur) will almost certainly include a nose that is BTV as otherwise it breaks the curve from the back to the neck and leads to a hollow back.

The cult of the 'new and amazing' training method is one of my pet peeves as well PS! Every idiot out there feels an irresistible need to share his great wisdom with a grateful public, while slating everyone else's approach as utterly cruel and useless.

I completely agree ihatework, there are many faults a horse can display and they have to be judged within context. I don't think BTV is the end of the world, it happens through tension, it happens through conformation, it happens through poor training, but if all the horses were perfect all the time how would we choose a winner?!!! :D
 
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